How did the wizarding public know Voldemort's powers were broken on Halloween?

[sunnyskywalker]

I was trying to think of a reason for a rebounding Killing Curse to make Voldemort’s body disappear (no luck so far) when I thought of an entirely different question: with no body and no witnesses (other than Harry, who probably didn’t know more than a few words), why was the wizarding public so quick to believe Voldemort had been defeated?

McGonagall was staking out Privet Drive in cat form by the time Vernon left for work the next morning, and she already knew that “everyone” was saying Harry had defeated Voldemort. Even if we’re generous and say that the attack happened at 6:00 p.m. (after dark, trick-or-treaters are out) and Vernon left at 9:00 a.m. (wizards gathering in the streets), that’s only fifteen hours. And the attack could have happened as late as 10:00 p.m., and Vernon could have left for work earlier. Maybe it was only ten hours.

Now, ten or fifteen hours might be enough time for word to spread that something had happened at Godric’s Hollow, but it’s a very short window for everyone to be so confident of what had happened. Why was “everyone” already saying Voldemort was gone for good?

Consider what the Ministry could have known from the scene and whatever Dumbledore told them: James and Lily were dead, probably from the Killing Curse; something blew a hole in the house near Harry’s crib; Harry had an unexplained curse scar and was alive. Voldemort didn’t leave a body. What made them think he was mostly dead? He could have killed James and Lily, inexplicably failed to kill Harry, blew a hole in the house to vent his frustration, and left without sending up the Dark Mark because he was too embarrassed to claim his work when he couldn’t finish the job. Maybe he didn’t even try to kill Harry, just cursed him as a warning. (The general public doesn’t know about the prophecy, so they have no reason to think he was targeting Harry rather than Lily and James.) If they didn’t track down and question the one child who saw under Voldemort’s hood, they might not even be sure that Voldemort rather than one of his Death Eaters was the attacker. How did they know he wasn’t torturing that Death Eater for botching the assignment at the same time the Ministry was examining the scene?

Did he maybe leave bits of his body behind? But we have no evidence that he did, and you’d think it would come up during one of the discussions Harry heard about whether Voldemort was really most sincerely dead. Umbridge probably would have used it as “proof” that Voldemort hadn’t returned, for example.

Did some Death Eater stop in the middle of a public attack and start shrieking that he’d felt the Dark Lord cry out in terror before being suddenly silenced? That would be very dramatic, but we have no evidence of that either. And it’s so dramatic that it would be weird that we didn’t hear the story, if it happened.

Or did everyone take Dumbledore’s word for it? “I didn’t witness any of last night’s events, haven’t spoken to anyone who did, and can provide no evidence whatsoever, but my mysterious sources tell me that Voldemort was suddenly weakened nearly to the point of death, and that whatever remains of him is currently fleeing the country. No, I couldn’t possibly explain why I’m claiming that young Harry was responsible. No, I really can’t offer any reason you should believe any of this. But I am absolutely certain that Voldemort won’t be resuming his campaign of terror after a week to recuperate.”

And that’s enough for the Ministry to make a statement for the Daily Prophet so that everyone can start planning parties by breakfast time? Trusting bunch, wizards.

Okay, maybe Dumbledore told them he saw some of the events in Harry’s memory via Legilimency. Maybe he showed Ministry investigators Harry’s memory in the school Pensieve. At least that supports part of the story.

On the other hand, Dumbledore might not have wanted anyone to see that memory. The more people knew that Lily had jumped in front of a Killing Curse meant for Harry, the more risk there was of someone wondering whether there wasn’t some old magic they thought they’d heard about once, something about love and sacrifice, and maybe Lily was really the one somehow responsible for Voldemort’s disappearance? Dumbledore had several reasons not to want the rumor mill getting ahold of that idea, starting with “’Harry did it’ is good protection for Harry against any vengeful Death Eaters, and I can’t be sure that one of these Ministry investigator isn’t secretly a vengeful Death Eater.” If Dumbledore showed or even told these details to anyone, he must have made really sure that they couldn’t talk.

Which just kicks the problem down the road, because then the public would be taking some Ministry official’s word that a baby semi-killed Voldemort. Why would they do that? Especially when they were all sure that Death Eaters could be anywhere, including working at the Ministry? That’s even less believable than everyone taking Dumbledore’s word for it. At least he had first-hand experience with defeating Dark Lords.

Am I missing something? What convinced everyone within hours of Voldemort’s defeat that he was gone, and made them so confident enough to celebrate rather than waiting and seeing?

Comments

[with-rainfall.livejournal.com]

I never picked up that the McGonagall incident was the very next day after the attack.

Hmm. Well, perhaps Halloween night was a special night for wizards — for whatever reason — and the majority of wizards were out that night celebrating it and having a feast.

If Hagrid told Tom he’d had word from Dumbledore, who passed it on to his customers, I can see Patronuses, Apparition and Floos being used to spread the word quickly. I don’t think the Ministry even needs to be involved with this scenario at this point, although I can see Fudge getting the equivalent of a middle-of-the-night phone call to inform him.

We know Hagrid frequents bars, and we know he’s (by and large) truthful, highly irresponsible with creatures in his care, susceptible, and prone to drinking. If he took Harry to the pub and showed them his scar, then they all had a rousing chorus of whatever victory songs they wanted and scattered, I could see everyone celebrating when they heard the news.

I also do think we are meant to believe the majority of the wizarding public are… hmm… how do I put this? Essentially harmless. Diggle and the like come across as rather cartoony, scatterbrained, credulous but affable types. I get the feeling they, at least, would have nodded and smiled if Dumbledore had told them that Big Ben was made of sponge cake.

[sunnyskywalker]

Pubs sound like a good possibility for spreading the story quickly. There were also a ton of owls flying around during the day on November 1--I wonder if you can crash the Floo network if too many people are trying to talk?

Though some of those owls might have been later reactions to exciting but less urgent, party-provoking news: "OMG did you hear Sirius Black killed his friend and was laughing his head off when they arrested him?"

Yeah, everyone is awfully quick to believe Dumbledore. At least until 1995. It's just such a big claim, over something that had supposedly been terrifying everyone, that it's hard to believe even wizards would immediately go, "Whew, that's settled! Pop the cork on the bubbly!" And I can't see Crouch being happy about smiling and nodding and letting Dumbledore take even third-hand credit for winning the war without doing a very thorough investigation of his own. Because it would look terrible if the Ministry went along with the celebrations and then it turned out Voldemort was fine, if nothing else. Hm, maybe he was too busy with the whole Sirius incident and was just too late to respond before everyone started partying? And was also slammed with all those Death Eaters walking in to plead Imperius? Except he seems pretty good at juggling lots of work.

Maybe some Death Eater did completely lose his head and start shouting that he'd get revenge on whoever had just vanquished the Dark Lord. In the middle of Diagon Alley. That plus Dumbledore's claim is two pieces of "evidence" supporting each other, which might be enough for a lot of wizards. Then if Sirius shouted something at Peter while failing to curse him, something suitably ambiguous like "and what are going to do now that Voldemort's dead, dumbass," that would convince a lot of the more cautious ones that yep, sounds like it's confirmed!

[with-rainfall.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that’s a good point too.

Vernon and Muggle news outlets only see all the weird, conspicuous bits. The ‘showers of shooting stars’ all across England might have been wizarding fireworks or similar spells — maybe they had them lying around or conjured some. All it takes is one person to get overexcited and bombard the skies. McGonagall even points out Diggle as the potential culprit. Twenty or thirty more people like that and you will start to attract attention.

(Incidentally, either Muggles are only seeing them from a distance and mistaking them for shooting stars, or they’re somehow charmed to look like shooting stars.)

It does seem strange that the wizarding GP don’t just shrug and chalk it up to the rumour mill.
I suspect there was a much more skeptical outlook from a minority of the general public, but by and large it really does sound like “The BBC (I.e. Dumbledore) said it, therefore it’s true.” Look how quickly most people disbelieve Harry when he insists Voldemort’s back in OOTP. Most people in the British WW just seem to be stuck in their own little enclave of wishful thinking. Perhaps that’s what happens when you can get almost anything you want with the wave of a wand.

You’re right, Crouch would have done his own investigation, but the following morning. But then I think the rumour mill would’ve been in full swing and everyone would have lapped up the story, regardless of its veracity. In a world where Voldemort had managed to kill Harry, I’m sure that the Ministry would’ve released some kind of article vehemently denying the rumours. Also, LV would possibly have taken over the Ministry had he won.

Although his investigation can’t have been too flash, can it, because it landed the wrong man in jail for thirteen years.

[sunnyskywalker]

Diggle would be one of the people most inclined to trust Dumbledore and break out the fireworks immediately, too.

I think people not believing that Voldemort has returned is a slightly different situation, since someone bodily coming back from the (mostly) dead is supposed to be just as impossible for wizards as for us. And there isn't any evidence available to them other than Harry's eyewitness account, and he spends most of the year not giving it. Whereas they do have proof that an escaped Death Eater was in the school impersonating Moody, and know that there are spells which can make people (like Harry) believe things that aren't true. So not believing Harry and pinning all the blame on Barty Junior is pretty reasonable and doesn't require unusual trust in authority figures or more than a normal amount of wishful thinking.

"This unkillable guy is dead thanks to a baby because Dumbledore says so" is somewhat less reasonable. I'd be worried that it was a trick and Voldemort was planning to gather his followers and ambush any crowds celebrating his supposed demise, if I were there. What a great way to make Dumbledore look foolish and take out a bunch of people who oppose the new Dark Order all at once!

I think Terri might be on to something with the idea that Crouch quickly realized Sirius was a loose canon and maybe a wannabe, and might have killed those Muggles as collateral damage, but was not Voldemort's right-hand man after all--and decided to toss Sirius in prison as quickly as possible anyway. That way, he could get credit for having taken out a dangerous Dark wizard without anyone else figuring out that Sirius was actually a better-looking Stan Shunpike. I mean, Crouch just got upstaged by a baby; he needed that boost. See, the Ministry is also good at making you safer! Crouch for Minister! (And Dumbledore didn't protest as long as Crouch didn't question Sirius too hard about the Order. Win-win!)

[chantaldormand]

IMHO what convinced everybody was Albus' status, brainwashing and charisma. It isn't up until COS that people start to doubt his leadership and up until GOF his mental health is questioned by anyone who isn't his political opponent.
It's clear to me Albus used every resource he had available to bend "reality" to his will. We see it from the start- in PS Albus pretty much on his own decides to illegally remove Harry from his parents' house and place him with his relatives. And he makes sure to not be personally involved- he sends his very vulnerable henchman to kidnap Harry. If things go wrong all he has to do is erase this memory from Minnie's mind and claim Hagrid is lying.

Also Albus is "Voldemort expert"- he pretty much created the situation where he is the only reliable source of information on Tom. I wouldn't be surprised if he used this to his benefit.

The way I see it, somewhere between the attack and let's say 4 AM on Nov. 1st Albus wrote (on his figurative knee) a letter that was supposed to be published in morning editions of major publications on Nov. 1st. It was act independent from MOM narrative, but thanks to his influence (or perhaps his Big Book of Blackmail) they end up falling in with his narrative. Then after examining Harry- and perhaps detecting Horcrux- he started to plan out a long term plan for the Chosen One. I wouldn't be surprised if there were multiple books about Harry published that had only informations provided by Albus.
I wonder if there is some kind of law stopping press from interviewing wizards and witches under certain age. Either that or Rowling getting more and more annoyed with press as the series went xP

[sunnyskywalker]

A preemptive letter to the editor does sound like his style. And if McGonagall heard from Hagrid right before he left to pick up Harry and rumors at the Leaky Cauldron very early in the morning on her way to Little Whinging (because the pub got the rumors early enough that people kept coming in to talk and they didn't close), she might have missed the morning paper--so that she hasn't seen Dumbledore's letter and only knows what "they" are saying.

Maybe only the most, um, trusting and unreflective wizards, like Diggle, are actually celebrating that first day. Vernon also sees clusters of strangely-dressed people just out and talking, so maybe they're running around going, "OMG did you see the paper? Do you think it's true? Hey guys, did you see the extra edition that just came out with the story about Black?"

Sirius apparently killing Peter to shut him up and not getting rescued by Death Eater moles in the Ministry makes people wonder...maybe it really is true.

Hm, what really might clinch things for the majority is when all the Death Eaters (who do have evidence that Voldemort is weakened) start turning themselves in claiming to have suddenly been released from the Imperius Curse and gosh they can't believe the things they did. And the real Imperius victims whom the Death Eaters probably released with a strong compulsion to do the same, so there would be a flood of Imperius pleas for the Ministry to sort through and some obviously genuine victims to make the rest look more convincing. That might convince people that okay, if anyone Voldemort cursed is suddenly free, and anyone his Death Eaters cursed has been released, that means Voldemort is truly weakened and the Death Eaters are so sure that he's not coming back that they're trying to cut ties with the whole organization.

So by, say, Guy Fawkes Night, everyone else is ready to join in the celebrations.

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

"...cry out in terror before being suddenly silenced?"

Quoting Star Trek?

[chantaldormand]

/Hm, what really might clinch things for the majority is when all the Death Eaters (who do have evidence that Voldemort is weakened) start turning themselves in claiming to have suddenly been released from the Imperius Curse and gosh they can't believe the things they did. And the real Imperius victims whom the Death Eaters probably released with a strong compulsion to do the same, so there would be a flood of Imperius pleas for the Ministry to sort through and some obviously genuine victims to make the rest look more convincing. That might convince people that okay, if anyone Voldemort cursed is suddenly free, and anyone his Death Eaters cursed has been released, that means Voldemort is truly weakened and the Death Eaters are so sure that he's not coming back that they're trying to cut ties with the whole organization./

Now that I think about it Rowling missed here a huge chance to both address and explore an issue that is very relevant to her setting: free will. Because if there were so many people claiming they were victims of mind control that DE managed to slip by, then how do you integrate these people into society?
My country never truly made settlements with it's communist past like Czech Republic. Occasionally someone will drag into public, information about someone else's cooperation with communist regime.
I can imagine just how much chaos in both daily life of average citizen of WW and in politics it would create if there were so many people claiming they were mind controlled for indeterminable amount of time.

[sunnyskywalker]

Close--Star Wars. Voldemort not-quite-dying is admittedly less dramatic than Alderaan blowing up, but probably still quite a shock considering he's supposed to be unkillable.

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

Yes, that was it. I know them both well (at least the first SW trilogy; I never bothered with the prequels), but all I could think of was Spock responding to the destruction of the crew of the Intrepid.

[sunnyskywalker]

This makes me want to re-read Bitterblue by Kristin Cashore. It's set several years after the the death of the king of a fantasy kingdom--one whose secret magic power was that everything he said was really persuasive, to the point where he basically mind-controlled people. It even worked at second-hand, in weakened form: if someone told you the king was a great guy, because the king told that person he was, you were just a bit more inclined to believe it than you would be on your own. It was terrifying. Bitterblue was about that problem--how do you cope with the aftermath as a society? Do the court advisors etc. keep their jobs, for example? They did horrible things, but not of their own free will. Probably. How can you really be sure who was being mentally coerced and who didn't really need that magic push because they were already on board with what the king wanted?

One of the reasons this worked so well was that his power was like a magical version of the real effect powerful, prominent people have. The king didn't just generally mind-control everyone about everything; he had to say stuff. Then people gave his opinions and orders more weight than their own judgment, as real people do for powerful people and cult leaders without magic (and then later might think, "OMG, what, that was terrible, what was I thinking how could I"). If you've read this book, I'd be interested to know how it compares to that dynamic in your country!

That's what the wizarding world would have been facing in November 1981. You're right, Rowling could have done so much more with that.

[sunnyskywalker]

That was a really interesting moment. Iirc we normally hear that Vulcans are touch-telepaths, but if a bunch die at once, they--or at least Spock--can feel it at a distance. And then when Sarek developed Bendii Syndrome, he was projecting his emotions all over the ship. So there's at least some degree of intraspecies telepathy at a distance. Which makes you wonder things like, "Could Vulcans have a literally collective unconscious?"

[chantaldormand]

From what I can see Bitterblue is third part of series. Do I need to read previous books to enjoy this one?

I'm intrigued by your description of Bitterblue. Although with charismatic leaders manipulations plenty of people tend to process it as them not having any other choice or blaming it on someone else. It's much easier for human brain to process the situation this way.

[sunnyskywalker]

It would make a lot more sense to read the other two first. The first one has the discovery that the king is evil and the struggle against him, and the second is a prequel which shows some of his childhood.

It's a YA series and some bits are simplified to the point of absurdity. E.g., in the first book, there are several bad kings, so the main character starts a secret council of do-gooders to run around rescuing prisoners and stuff, which works perfectly with no traitors or even missions gone terribly wrong! Yeah, right... And, fair warning, Gracelings (who each have a striking talent) are identifiable by their mis-matched eye colors. Some Graceling talents are things like "being an amazing chef" and "being able to say anything backwards," but some are "amazing ability to survive basically anything, yes even if it means killing a mountain lion in a blizzard with a dagger." And of course the terrifying "everyone believes what you say" power.

But it has a lot of really good points, like the terrifyingly persuasive king whose legacy causes damage even after he's dead, female characters who like kids fine but don't want any of their own and aren't narratively punished or forced to change, a nurse/nanny who thinks girls all surely like pretty dresses and getting married yet is not an evil character, and other refreshing things like that. So whether to read it depends on whether your tolerance for a few absurd elements is high enough to enjoy the other stuff.

rebounding curse

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

Regarding your initial plaint, trying to figure out why a rebounding Killing Curse would make Tom's body disappear....

Symmetry?

As I understand the matter, the way a Killing Curse normally operates is to send the soul to the Deadlands while leaving the body untouched. Just dead.

So maybe, if the soul is irrevocably anchored by a Horcrux, the curse sends the body to the Deadlands instead?

Huh. If that's true, Dumbledore, who's one of the few people in England left alive who know anything about Horcruxes (thanks to his own meddling), would know as soon as he got to Godric's Hollow and found no body, that Tom had relied on a Horcrux rather than the Hallows for his immortality-bid.

Except... huh. Now I'm wondering further. As far as we know from Hagrid, Albus didn't go to Godric's Hollow himself.

Not that night. Maybe, never?

He sent an agent, and a very naive agent. Who's half-giant and maybe has a resistance to some forms of magic effective against full-humans?

Which would be a very sinister course of action. If it WAS Albus's course of action. Can you imagine what kind of threat would keep Albus from investigating the magical traces from that night HIMSELF? Leaving all evidence to be gathered by the Ministry?

Oh, heckimundo. Did Albus expect Tom's discorporate shade to be hanging about, waiting to possess the first person who showed?

Re: rebounding curse

[oryx_leucoryx]

Hi Terri,

I still think that until Harry's tale about the Chamber and Tom's diary and its capabilities Albus believed Harry was Tom's only Horcrux, created accidentally by an amateur Dark Wizard, not half as clever as Albus himself. And that by the time he talked to Severus and pressured him into helping the protection of Harry he knew that Harry was the Horcrux and that Lily's action was key to Harry's survival. Could he have figured out both of these without visiting the minimally disturbed scene?

Re: rebounding curse

[oryx_leucoryx]

Also, we need to think about what would happen with a 'normal' Horcrux, when the Horcrux-owner is hit by someone else's AK vs Tom's situation, when he was hit by his own AK. Are you saying that 'normally' when a wizard who has a Horcrux is hit by an AK their body disappears, their soul stays around, and to keep being able to carry out actions in the world they need to possess some other body? So the capacity of possession is the main advantage over simply insisting on becoming a ghost? Or is body vanishment unique to Horcrux-owning wizards that are hit by their own AK? I wonder how many of these there have been?

Re: rebounding curse

[sunnyskywalker]

That makes more sense than anything I've come up with. Something has to go, so if it can't be the soul, it must be the body. It has the virtue of being relatively straightforward, and if it's what normally happens to wizards who have made a single Horcrux but get killed, then Dumbledore has another reason to suspect there's a Horcrux in play.

Slughorn would have known the stories of previous dead wizards with Horcruxes too: their bodies disappeared, and then (not knowing a nifty rebirthday potion recipe, or not having a desperate follower to brew it if they did) they were stuck as less than the meanest ghosts until they lost their grips on reality from alternating between being disembodied and possessing dozens of different creatures and people, or attenuated and couldn't hold their conscious minds together, or something. Few would choose that indeed.

Though Slughorn could also be referring to wizards living way too long in bodies they hadn't been able to preserve properly. Sort of like Tithonus.

Oh, yikes. That adds a new layer of chilling to the night's proceedings. Though at least not examining the scene right away himself and instead sending the most magic-resistant person around now looks like an...um, I won't say good reason, exactly, but at least a reason with some logic behind it. I don't think anyone wants an Albusmort running around! Or a Crouchmort, or a Moodymort, or...ack. So many scary possibilities. Though given how possession destroys bodies, I guess that would solve everyone's Crouch problem sooner or later. (Hm, would Crouchmort have wanted to interrogate Sirius instead of locking him up as quickly as possible? To find something to make Dumbledore look bad and hopefully keep him busy while Vapormort worked on getting his body back, if nothing else?)

I wonder. Maybe Dumbledore did initially go to Godric's Hollow, but before he got too close, he detected Vapormort hanging around, still adjusting to his pain-beyond-pain existence (surely it took at least a few minutes for him to pull himself together and decide to head for Albania). He beat a hasty retreat, and then sent Hagrid. Who he might have had on standby already as one of the most loyal followers most convenient to hand.

Re: rebounding curse

[sunnyskywalker]

If some of those wizards who made single Horcruxes didn't manage to keep their bodies healthy and spry, maybe it's usual for them to eventually attempt to AK themselves? Or--since we'd want witnesses who could vouch for the body actually vanishing instantaneously--maybe they asked someone to AK them, or tried to commit suicide-by-Auror. (And found that they weren't dead, but even worse off, and then had to possess people until they finally managed to use one to destroy the Horcrux.)

And there' some sort of...I don't know, Killing Curse momentum, that means it has to push something into Death's country, and if the soul's stuck here, that leaves the body.