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deathtocapslockI was trying to think of a reason for a rebounding Killing Curse to make Voldemort’s body disappear (no luck so far) when I thought of an entirely different question: with no body and no witnesses (other than Harry, who probably didn’t know more than a few words), why was the wizarding public so quick to believe Voldemort had been defeated?
McGonagall was staking out Privet Drive in cat form by the time Vernon left for work the next morning, and she already knew that “everyone” was saying Harry had defeated Voldemort. Even if we’re generous and say that the attack happened at 6:00 p.m. (after dark, trick-or-treaters are out) and Vernon left at 9:00 a.m. (wizards gathering in the streets), that’s only fifteen hours. And the attack could have happened as late as 10:00 p.m., and Vernon could have left for work earlier. Maybe it was only ten hours.
Now, ten or fifteen hours might be enough time for word to spread that something had happened at Godric’s Hollow, but it’s a very short window for everyone to be so confident of what had happened. Why was “everyone” already saying Voldemort was gone for good?
Consider what the Ministry could have known from the scene and whatever Dumbledore told them: James and Lily were dead, probably from the Killing Curse; something blew a hole in the house near Harry’s crib; Harry had an unexplained curse scar and was alive. Voldemort didn’t leave a body. What made them think he was mostly dead? He could have killed James and Lily, inexplicably failed to kill Harry, blew a hole in the house to vent his frustration, and left without sending up the Dark Mark because he was too embarrassed to claim his work when he couldn’t finish the job. Maybe he didn’t even try to kill Harry, just cursed him as a warning. (The general public doesn’t know about the prophecy, so they have no reason to think he was targeting Harry rather than Lily and James.) If they didn’t track down and question the one child who saw under Voldemort’s hood, they might not even be sure that Voldemort rather than one of his Death Eaters was the attacker. How did they know he wasn’t torturing that Death Eater for botching the assignment at the same time the Ministry was examining the scene?
Did he maybe leave bits of his body behind? But we have no evidence that he did, and you’d think it would come up during one of the discussions Harry heard about whether Voldemort was really most sincerely dead. Umbridge probably would have used it as “proof” that Voldemort hadn’t returned, for example.
Did some Death Eater stop in the middle of a public attack and start shrieking that he’d felt the Dark Lord cry out in terror before being suddenly silenced? That would be very dramatic, but we have no evidence of that either. And it’s so dramatic that it would be weird that we didn’t hear the story, if it happened.
Or did everyone take Dumbledore’s word for it? “I didn’t witness any of last night’s events, haven’t spoken to anyone who did, and can provide no evidence whatsoever, but my mysterious sources tell me that Voldemort was suddenly weakened nearly to the point of death, and that whatever remains of him is currently fleeing the country. No, I couldn’t possibly explain why I’m claiming that young Harry was responsible. No, I really can’t offer any reason you should believe any of this. But I am absolutely certain that Voldemort won’t be resuming his campaign of terror after a week to recuperate.”
And that’s enough for the Ministry to make a statement for the Daily Prophet so that everyone can start planning parties by breakfast time? Trusting bunch, wizards.
Okay, maybe Dumbledore told them he saw some of the events in Harry’s memory via Legilimency. Maybe he showed Ministry investigators Harry’s memory in the school Pensieve. At least that supports part of the story.
On the other hand, Dumbledore might not have wanted anyone to see that memory. The more people knew that Lily had jumped in front of a Killing Curse meant for Harry, the more risk there was of someone wondering whether there wasn’t some old magic they thought they’d heard about once, something about love and sacrifice, and maybe Lily was really the one somehow responsible for Voldemort’s disappearance? Dumbledore had several reasons not to want the rumor mill getting ahold of that idea, starting with “’Harry did it’ is good protection for Harry against any vengeful Death Eaters, and I can’t be sure that one of these Ministry investigator isn’t secretly a vengeful Death Eater.” If Dumbledore showed or even told these details to anyone, he must have made really sure that they couldn’t talk.
Which just kicks the problem down the road, because then the public would be taking some Ministry official’s word that a baby semi-killed Voldemort. Why would they do that? Especially when they were all sure that Death Eaters could be anywhere, including working at the Ministry? That’s even less believable than everyone taking Dumbledore’s word for it. At least he had first-hand experience with defeating Dark Lords.
Am I missing something? What convinced everyone within hours of Voldemort’s defeat that he was gone, and made them so confident enough to celebrate rather than waiting and seeing?
McGonagall was staking out Privet Drive in cat form by the time Vernon left for work the next morning, and she already knew that “everyone” was saying Harry had defeated Voldemort. Even if we’re generous and say that the attack happened at 6:00 p.m. (after dark, trick-or-treaters are out) and Vernon left at 9:00 a.m. (wizards gathering in the streets), that’s only fifteen hours. And the attack could have happened as late as 10:00 p.m., and Vernon could have left for work earlier. Maybe it was only ten hours.
Now, ten or fifteen hours might be enough time for word to spread that something had happened at Godric’s Hollow, but it’s a very short window for everyone to be so confident of what had happened. Why was “everyone” already saying Voldemort was gone for good?
Consider what the Ministry could have known from the scene and whatever Dumbledore told them: James and Lily were dead, probably from the Killing Curse; something blew a hole in the house near Harry’s crib; Harry had an unexplained curse scar and was alive. Voldemort didn’t leave a body. What made them think he was mostly dead? He could have killed James and Lily, inexplicably failed to kill Harry, blew a hole in the house to vent his frustration, and left without sending up the Dark Mark because he was too embarrassed to claim his work when he couldn’t finish the job. Maybe he didn’t even try to kill Harry, just cursed him as a warning. (The general public doesn’t know about the prophecy, so they have no reason to think he was targeting Harry rather than Lily and James.) If they didn’t track down and question the one child who saw under Voldemort’s hood, they might not even be sure that Voldemort rather than one of his Death Eaters was the attacker. How did they know he wasn’t torturing that Death Eater for botching the assignment at the same time the Ministry was examining the scene?
Did he maybe leave bits of his body behind? But we have no evidence that he did, and you’d think it would come up during one of the discussions Harry heard about whether Voldemort was really most sincerely dead. Umbridge probably would have used it as “proof” that Voldemort hadn’t returned, for example.
Did some Death Eater stop in the middle of a public attack and start shrieking that he’d felt the Dark Lord cry out in terror before being suddenly silenced? That would be very dramatic, but we have no evidence of that either. And it’s so dramatic that it would be weird that we didn’t hear the story, if it happened.
Or did everyone take Dumbledore’s word for it? “I didn’t witness any of last night’s events, haven’t spoken to anyone who did, and can provide no evidence whatsoever, but my mysterious sources tell me that Voldemort was suddenly weakened nearly to the point of death, and that whatever remains of him is currently fleeing the country. No, I couldn’t possibly explain why I’m claiming that young Harry was responsible. No, I really can’t offer any reason you should believe any of this. But I am absolutely certain that Voldemort won’t be resuming his campaign of terror after a week to recuperate.”
And that’s enough for the Ministry to make a statement for the Daily Prophet so that everyone can start planning parties by breakfast time? Trusting bunch, wizards.
Okay, maybe Dumbledore told them he saw some of the events in Harry’s memory via Legilimency. Maybe he showed Ministry investigators Harry’s memory in the school Pensieve. At least that supports part of the story.
On the other hand, Dumbledore might not have wanted anyone to see that memory. The more people knew that Lily had jumped in front of a Killing Curse meant for Harry, the more risk there was of someone wondering whether there wasn’t some old magic they thought they’d heard about once, something about love and sacrifice, and maybe Lily was really the one somehow responsible for Voldemort’s disappearance? Dumbledore had several reasons not to want the rumor mill getting ahold of that idea, starting with “’Harry did it’ is good protection for Harry against any vengeful Death Eaters, and I can’t be sure that one of these Ministry investigator isn’t secretly a vengeful Death Eater.” If Dumbledore showed or even told these details to anyone, he must have made really sure that they couldn’t talk.
Which just kicks the problem down the road, because then the public would be taking some Ministry official’s word that a baby semi-killed Voldemort. Why would they do that? Especially when they were all sure that Death Eaters could be anywhere, including working at the Ministry? That’s even less believable than everyone taking Dumbledore’s word for it. At least he had first-hand experience with defeating Dark Lords.
Am I missing something? What convinced everyone within hours of Voldemort’s defeat that he was gone, and made them so confident enough to celebrate rather than waiting and seeing?
no subject
Date: 2021-10-27 09:28 pm (UTC)It's clear to me Albus used every resource he had available to bend "reality" to his will. We see it from the start- in PS Albus pretty much on his own decides to illegally remove Harry from his parents' house and place him with his relatives. And he makes sure to not be personally involved- he sends his very vulnerable henchman to kidnap Harry. If things go wrong all he has to do is erase this memory from Minnie's mind and claim Hagrid is lying.
Also Albus is "Voldemort expert"- he pretty much created the situation where he is the only reliable source of information on Tom. I wouldn't be surprised if he used this to his benefit.
The way I see it, somewhere between the attack and let's say 4 AM on Nov. 1st Albus wrote (on his figurative knee) a letter that was supposed to be published in morning editions of major publications on Nov. 1st. It was act independent from MOM narrative, but thanks to his influence (or perhaps his Big Book of Blackmail) they end up falling in with his narrative. Then after examining Harry- and perhaps detecting Horcrux- he started to plan out a long term plan for the Chosen One. I wouldn't be surprised if there were multiple books about Harry published that had only informations provided by Albus.
I wonder if there is some kind of law stopping press from interviewing wizards and witches under certain age. Either that or Rowling getting more and more annoyed with press as the series went xP
no subject
Date: 2021-10-30 06:39 pm (UTC)Maybe only the most, um, trusting and unreflective wizards, like Diggle, are actually celebrating that first day. Vernon also sees clusters of strangely-dressed people just out and talking, so maybe they're running around going, "OMG did you see the paper? Do you think it's true? Hey guys, did you see the extra edition that just came out with the story about Black?"
Sirius apparently killing Peter to shut him up and not getting rescued by Death Eater moles in the Ministry makes people wonder...maybe it really is true.
Hm, what really might clinch things for the majority is when all the Death Eaters (who do have evidence that Voldemort is weakened) start turning themselves in claiming to have suddenly been released from the Imperius Curse and gosh they can't believe the things they did. And the real Imperius victims whom the Death Eaters probably released with a strong compulsion to do the same, so there would be a flood of Imperius pleas for the Ministry to sort through and some obviously genuine victims to make the rest look more convincing. That might convince people that okay, if anyone Voldemort cursed is suddenly free, and anyone his Death Eaters cursed has been released, that means Voldemort is truly weakened and the Death Eaters are so sure that he's not coming back that they're trying to cut ties with the whole organization.
So by, say, Guy Fawkes Night, everyone else is ready to join in the celebrations.
no subject
Date: 2021-11-09 08:00 pm (UTC)Now that I think about it Rowling missed here a huge chance to both address and explore an issue that is very relevant to her setting: free will. Because if there were so many people claiming they were victims of mind control that DE managed to slip by, then how do you integrate these people into society?
My country never truly made settlements with it's communist past like Czech Republic. Occasionally someone will drag into public, information about someone else's cooperation with communist regime.
I can imagine just how much chaos in both daily life of average citizen of WW and in politics it would create if there were so many people claiming they were mind controlled for indeterminable amount of time.
no subject
Date: 2021-11-13 10:20 pm (UTC)One of the reasons this worked so well was that his power was like a magical version of the real effect powerful, prominent people have. The king didn't just generally mind-control everyone about everything; he had to say stuff. Then people gave his opinions and orders more weight than their own judgment, as real people do for powerful people and cult leaders without magic (and then later might think, "OMG, what, that was terrible, what was I thinking how could I"). If you've read this book, I'd be interested to know how it compares to that dynamic in your country!
That's what the wizarding world would have been facing in November 1981. You're right, Rowling could have done so much more with that.
no subject
Date: 2021-11-14 03:29 pm (UTC)I'm intrigued by your description of Bitterblue. Although with charismatic leaders manipulations plenty of people tend to process it as them not having any other choice or blaming it on someone else. It's much easier for human brain to process the situation this way.
no subject
Date: 2021-11-14 08:36 pm (UTC)It's a YA series and some bits are simplified to the point of absurdity. E.g., in the first book, there are several bad kings, so the main character starts a secret council of do-gooders to run around rescuing prisoners and stuff, which works perfectly with no traitors or even missions gone terribly wrong! Yeah, right... And, fair warning, Gracelings (who each have a striking talent) are identifiable by their mis-matched eye colors. Some Graceling talents are things like "being an amazing chef" and "being able to say anything backwards," but some are "amazing ability to survive basically anything, yes even if it means killing a mountain lion in a blizzard with a dagger." And of course the terrifying "everyone believes what you say" power.
But it has a lot of really good points, like the terrifyingly persuasive king whose legacy causes damage even after he's dead, female characters who like kids fine but don't want any of their own and aren't narratively punished or forced to change, a nurse/nanny who thinks girls all surely like pretty dresses and getting married yet is not an evil character, and other refreshing things like that. So whether to read it depends on whether your tolerance for a few absurd elements is high enough to enjoy the other stuff.