OotP Chapter Five

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Quickly getting this out before my internet goes down again!



*Sad that apparently the best thing the Order ever did was come up with their name, a name they never lived up to in decades.

* Harry continues his mood swings, appreciating things like Molly saying he might as well be a son but also impatient at her molly coddling. I would consider it presumptuous for some woman to claim I was basically her son, particularly if I were Harry, since people like to claim him for his name. Of course, in canon the only people who get criticized for this are bad guys--good guys are always assumed to like Harry for himself, though personally I think Molly's had plenty of Orphan!Harry fantasies where she's Mama Mary Sue. If I were Harry I'd never kid myself into thinking my best friend's mum really cared about me as much as she did even her least favorite child (if she had one) on his worst day. Particularly not in this world, where despite what people try to claim about it being about tolerance and modern-thinking, family seems to be everything.

* Fudge's story does, at least, make sense, the way he's convinced himself he's right. We also get a hint here that the rest of the world has no reason to believe Harry, which he will deal with by ranting about it and deciding they are stupid. It's still a shame the alternative must be Dumbledore. I will continue to dream of a Wizarding Society where people can make informed decisions and not constantly give up freedom for safety.

* The theory that liking us=good person gets more play with Harry feeling a surge of affection for Sirius because he doesn't like Dumbledore, which is both a nicely human touch for Harry but also not all that examined. I mean, Harry doesn't know Sirius that well, and their supposedly great bond therefore always seems very fake to me. This just underscores it. Harry likes Sirius as long as he's not standing in his way, which is the extent to which he likes most people.

*Why would Peter have just told Voldemort Sirius was an animagus? Wouldn't he have told him that years ago, like when he first joined up? Was he waiting for Remus to tell before he did or something?

* Then there's also Mundungus, of whom Molly does not approve, for understandable reasons. The last thing the twins need is a confirmed criminal regaling them with tales of how fun it is to be a crook as long as you're loyal to Dumbledore. I actually have no problem with the idea of working with shady people when necessary, and think it's pretty reasonable to say well, maybe he's not usually trustworthy but he's loyal to us so he's useful to an extent, but you don't have to romanticize him, which the twins are probably in danger of doing.

* Then there's the whole, "Don't tell Harry more than he needs to know" business. I'm still having a hard time buying anybody's plan, either the Order's or Voldemort's. It's just so obvious Harry should know more than he does. It's got nothing to do with not being the Order, because this is about him personally. Even now it's clear Harry could be told enough to help him without letting him know he's got to kill Voldemort on his own (in case he hadn't figured that out yet).

*ETA: But then, you haven't seen a stupid plan until you've read DH.

* There's lots of vague references to how secretly Voldemort works and how dangerous things in the Order are, but having seen both groups up close that just doesn't hold up much. If Harry wasn't supposed to survive GoF why oh why isn't he taken out effectively? Honestly, Tom. Hire some Muggles to do it. The Russian mob would have taken all of these people down with far less fuss. I saw it on Law and Order.

*A lot has been made of Harry suddenly becoming a brat or a teenager, depending how you see him. Others have replied that since Harry didn't act 11 when he was 11, why should he be 15 at 15? Why shouldn't he continue to be more mature? In this chapter what struck me was...why are ALL the kids regressing? I've complained in the past at the way Malfoy seems stuck at 11, but here we get:

* Hermione and Ginny giggling over Tonk's funny noses at the table--yeah, I'm sure it's funny once but if you're older than a toddler it would get thin pretty quickly. Ginny also giggles at Mundungus falling asleep at the meeting--presumably because he's drunk? Again at 14 I don't think that would send me into giggles. In fact, most 14 year-old girls can be become downright humorless about that kind of thing, and while obviously Ginny would never be one of those girls (now), I can't imagine Hermione finding it funny if Ron were making funny noses at her. Does she have a crush on Tonks or something?

* Ginny stomping upstairs yelling when she's sent up to bed, and waking the portraits. Okay, I know supposedly Ginny was "always" the way she was in OotP, but damn it's hard to imagine the girl in earlier books throwing a tantrum like this. I know there are some teenagers that do this, but it just adds to this general feeling for me that all the kids have suddenly turned into babies. Obviously you do need to go to bed now young lady, because you're getting cranky. And apparently Ginny's again left a pile of toys on the floor when she left.

* Ron and Hermione don't help with their whining when they're sent upstairs and their, "Harry's just going to tell us anyway! We want to staaaayyyy!" I understand their point but like I said, it just adds to this general feeling that kids who up till now have been characteristically calm and well-behaved have turned into something more childish. I know that at 11 they'd almost have an advantage because they wouldn't imagine they had any right to be at the meeting, while now they feel more like adults, but still you'd think they'd know how to handle adults better.

* Finally, there's the twins spilling things over everything when they try to set the table. Molly's way of chastizing them by pointing out that Bill didn't apparate everywhere, Charlie didn't whip out his wand for everything is bad news because it sets them against their brothers, but her general point is absolutely correct. They really are acting like complete babies who can't control themselves with a new toy. Yes, boys, we know you can do magic now, but it's not cute. I mean, presumably it's supposed to be part of their whole jokester personality but there's nothing particularly funny about trying to fling the pots around and stopping them short--where else would that lead but a big mess and somebody almost getting hurt? I feel like JKR is trying to add a certain kind of chaotic humor to the situation that clashes with the other characterization thusfar. This scene was almost like a tiny ad for the Malfoy way of parenting--you know Lucius would have responded to this with some withering remark about even getting a bowl of stew from one end of the room to the other was beyond their abilities, then he'd probably order a house elf to cut up their meat for them at dinner to further make his humiliating point. That would have so worked on me.

Comments

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

Lupin/Tonks in itself isn't a problem, but the whole issue was so far off the page that it just makes no real sense. Particularly after the fact.

[kaskait.livejournal.com]

It doesn't work. If it could be left out of the story without being missed (and it can), then it doesn't belong. The Lupin/Tonks page filler needlessly stopped the story in it's tracks in DH.

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

Makes you seriously wonder whether she came up with the "clever plan" to create another war orphan while she was midway through HBP, decided Remus & Tonks were her best bet to provide one (probably right, unless you wanted to kill off Bill & Fleur) and went back and did a half-arsed retrofit, complete with mopey magic-dampening depression.

Admittedly the mopey magic-dampening depression served a dual purpose since it is relevant to explaining Merope. But given that she has Tonks unhappy in HBP and Remus unhappy in DHs, one wonders how emotionally healthy Teddy is likely to be when you factor in the "Evnissyen effect" which she claims is responsible for Tom Riddle.

[kaskait.livejournal.com]

I think the problem began somewhere after GOF and into OOTP. Since she decided to take out the HBP subplot from COS, she worked to cram in as much extra story as she could into OOTP. But it turned out that the HBP subplot really couldn't sustain a whole book.

If Tonks arrived in COS as opposed to OOTP, her whole story would have made more sense and she would have worked better as a false "rival" for Fleur. Rowling could have had one interactive meeting between Tonks and Lupin in POA. It would have set up OOTP better.

I still can't shake the feeling that something made the story jump the tracks but I can't put my finger on it. Lupin/Tonks were used to cover up the whole left by her previous story plan. I remember reading once that she went online and spoke to people at MN under an anon name. She stated she told them the story plan and they hated it. Did that scare her and cause her to change the plan? Who knows?

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

No the HBP plot wasn't enough to carry a book. Not even in partnership with the "what is Malfoy up to?" plot. Book 6 was disgracefully padded. And padded with things like Quidditch and chest monsters, which advanced nothing worth having.

But it is difficult to see how Tonks could have been introduced in CoS in any meaningful manner. We were still totally focused on the school at that point, and while I could just about see CoS making room for part of the official Snape backstory, as well as an intro to the official Riddle backstory (which I think we were always supposed to get in detail in book 6) I cannot see Tonks fitting into it with any kind of relevance. Even if she could have been introduced as a friend of the Weasleys, while Harry spent part of the summer with them. (I agree that introducing her earlier would have solved a lot of the problems with what she did with the character.)

But even the Prince himself served better value in Book 6 (and really wthout him where would the book have been?) there really wasn't much *to* book 6 apart from Albus's pensieve presentation of the life and times of Tom Riddle. And even that was strung out over months when it might as well have been conveyed by Halloween.

The problem with the series began in GoF, I think. The whole logic of the story fell apart and while one can try to pass the problems with that particular book off as being a side effect of Rowling having fallen into a plot hole and having to rewrite about a third of the book to get out of it, they really aren't. The problems were already there, because the logic of that particular book was faulty from the get-go. It's also the point at which she started getting more melodramatic and incoherant. The editors don't seem to have caught any of it since the series was already morphing into a media phenomenon and meeting the release date had become paramount.

I remember that story about her going online anonymously and no one wanted to hear her ideas, but that was during the 3-year summer and CoS was long out by then.

[kaskait.livejournal.com]

The whole logic of the story fell apart and while one can try to pass the problems with that particular book off as being a side effect of Rowling having fallen into a plot hole and having to rewrite about a third of the book to get out of it, they really aren't. The problems were already there, because the logic of that particular book was faulty from the get-go.

Yes. I often wondered if her use of Alchemy symbolism messed her up a bit. It requires a 7 step setup which is why she felt she needed 7 books. But she seems to have thrown the alchemy structure out the window in book 7. So why bother in the first place?

[aasaylva.livejournal.com]

Re alchemy: have you ever heard anything about why that went out of the window? One of many disappointing features of DH...

[kaskait.livejournal.com]

I really believe that the Alchemy angle was dropped because of the shipping wars. Although Rowling always planned for Hermione to be with Ron, the Alchemy structure requires Mercury to join with Sulfer i.e. Hermione with Harry (Ron as salt is always left behind).

From SS through OOTP, Rowling followed that plan with Hermione/Harry being the last ones left standing. Because she was coy with the relationships and Alchemy plans leave no room for change, it contributed to the problems of shipping. Besides the alchemy structure had no role for Ginny. Rowling felt she had to drop the structure in HBP and DH because it was getting in the way.

[aasaylva.livejournal.com]

Wow! I never knew about this. All I had read about was the idea of the three stages of black - white - red with the corresponding deaths of Sirius Black, Albus Dumbledore and (presumably) Rubeus Hagrid. Do you have any links concerning the "ship ideas" you mentioned?

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

And how perfect that all that filler seems to be what the movie of HBP is concentrating on! Granted, they've got their work cut out for them since none of the stories that mean anything in HBP are enough to make up the book. They could be, but we'd have to be in the pov of other people, so they're not. (And then they all wind up going nowhere anyway.) But still, yeah. HBP is one big empty book. Tom Riddle's backstory is even less relevent in the end than Dumbledore's in DH. It's something to learn about while we're waiting for it to be June so Harry can have his final confrontation with whomever.

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

But it is difficult to see how Tonks could have been introduced in CoS in any meaningful manner.

She didn't have to be introduced in a meaningful manner. She just needed to be introduced. For example, maybe she could have been introduced as Lockhart's wannabe girlfriend, eager to help out in setting up the dueling club. Or... if the Auror training program were two years instead of three, she could have been a star-struck seventh year student.

How cute would that have been if she had been all girly over Lockhart, only to realize what a dolt he is? Then to fall for Lupin? I would have been so in love with her then.

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

Actually, it might have made more sense to introduce her at the beginning of PoA, as a trainee Auror who was to keep an eye on Harry while he was staying at the Leakey Cauldron after escaping from Privet Drive. We'd have got to know her better if we had, even if we didn't see her for another couple of years. And if she escorted him to school as well she would have encountered Remus on the train.

For that matter, Tonks>Remus could have been established from the time we met them again with the Advance guard at the openingof OotP and run with it through the whole book. Including the smokescreen of her trying to be one of the boys with Remus and Sirius in order to get closer to him.

It would have at least made some sense of it all getting to be a bit too much for her by the opening of HBP if the whole point of being a Metamorphomagus was to make her mope her way out of her own abilities.

Of plotholes and padding

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, I was shocked about the direction of HBP - which was the first HP book I waited for and somewhat speculated about prior to release. I mean, Voldy is back in the open, people get murdered, Harry and Co now know the prophecy and what do they do? Play Quidditch and indulge in dalliances. Harry even says how there is no more point in a Defense club! That's just insane for 16+ old people in their position, not to mention for the OoTP adults in charge of them.

And don't start me on those supposedly Machiavellian plans that DD spent that year on!
Of course, Rowling had to painfully twist everything in DH so that Harry could win without investing any effort into preparing himself. Oh, and let's not forget that the agonizing mental connection of the previous volume was just an inconsequential joke.

I blame all those reviewers who panned OoTP for being too long, too dark and for once not entirely focussed on the Chosen Brat, but giving the world around him a role to play. From then on, it's back to "Harry is the navel of the world" mentality.

Re: GoF, given that it is one giant plot-hole in it's current incarnation, I am curious what could be enormous enough that JKR would feel need for a re-write?

Also, is there any detailed info about the JKR as anon episode? Like what were ideas that got scoffed at like? Wouldn't surprise me if they were much better than the stuff that made it into print...

Re: Of plotholes and padding

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

No she never said anything about what those ideas were that no one was interested in. I believe that was the incident that she signed in as "Squidward" or some such.

As to the hole in GoF; she was still getting edited in GoF, and I suspect that something an editor said made the penny drop. In any event, she claimed at the time that she suddenly realized that Mafalda, the Weasley cousin, who I gather was sorted into Slytherin as a First year and was planned to serve as an infodump on legs, simply had *no way of knowing* the information that she was supposed to relay to the trio.

At any event it was the fact that Mafalda had no access to the info she was supposed to deliver is the reason she was written out of the book, and it took rewriting about a third of it to excise all the references and to replace them with some other way of getting the info across. Rita ended up delivering much of it.

Re: Of plotholes and padding

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I wonder what she would have done with Mafalda later on, like in DH. Or even HBP. If this kid were an infodump would they have her spying on Draco in HBP? And far worse, would she think her being a Weasley meant she ought to stay in fight even though she wants all the Slytherins to not fight? Or would she have grown more evil in the next 3 years so she could just be another enemy?

Re: Of plotholes and padding

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

Hard to say. I'm not sure Rowling thought far enough ahead as to what she was going to do with the character once she had her.

If she was a 1st year in GoF she would have only been in 4th year by DHs, so she'd have been chivvied out of the castle, regardless. But she might have snuck back.

More probably, she wasn't real enough to Rowling to have even considered where she would have been when the battle finally came to Hogwarts.

(The kid was a Prewett, actually. At least if we can take Ron's statement that the Squib in the family was a cousin of his mother's as accurate.)

Re: Of plotholes and padding

[(Anonymous)]

Hm, but what did Rita actually know that a bright, nosy and sneaky 12-year-old couldn't find out? Really, this doesn't make sense. As to whether it would have led to a portrayal of a more sympathetic and nuanced Slytherin, who along with Malfoy would have had an actual speaking part, is a big question. But in the very least, it would have been a break in the whole nauseous "Houses run in the families" schtick. And it would have been interesting to watch a rather prejudiced family such as the Weasleys dealing with that. Not to mention that a child of s squib and a muggle in Slytherin, wearing an old proud name would have offered a lot of possibilities. On the whole, it was probably a loss that the character was cut. That is, unless Rowling intended to make her utterly loathesome in order to justify her tradition-breaking.

[aasaylva.livejournal.com]

The problem with the series began in GoF, I think. The whole logic of the story fell apart
I'm curious: Of what are you thinking in particular here?

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

The whole TriWizard Tournament comes out of nowhere. Even inside the internal timeline it hadn't been held since 1792. Why revive it? What was that supposed to accomplish? All it did acomplish was introduce a few new people who got moved around the board in the following books. One later served as an infodump, the others didn't even accomplish that much.

What is with the age line? Wingardium Leviosa is the first charm you learn in 1st year. You can't levitate a slip of paper into a cup from behind the line? If you are a Ministry brat like the Weasleys you don't think about the paper airplane memos all over the Ministry and improvise?

To say nothing of the stupidity of the way the tournament was handled. She didn't even make a point of stating that the surface of the lake was charmed to reflect what the champions were doing during the task. Instead she just has a lot of spectators sitting in bleachers stating at a lake for a couple of hours.

And what was Voldemort planning to *do* once he had abducted and killed Harry before witnesses? Plus, Voldemort was clearly behind whatever rig was being run under cover of the tournament. Nothing had happened before the third task to break the villain's cover. Didn't Albus realize that with the 3rd task as the final chance that *something* was bound to be tried during the evening? And that if Harry Potter was their *only* chance against Tom Riddle some precautions ought to be taken? Why didn't Snape turn up when called in order to try a rescue, even if it did blow his cover?

What comes across makes as much sense as the idea that Albus just arbitrarily talked the Flamels out of the Philosopher's Stone so he could use it as bait at Hogwarts on spec, without any idea that Tom had the school under attack.

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

You know--given the obsessive!Snape, it doesn't really make sense that Snape stayed back at Hogwarts--unless it was, as he claimed, that Dumbledore ordered him to. Which supports the idea that Dumbledore allowed Voldemort's rebirthing in order to get the blood protection....

Which supports the idea that Peter's "debt" thingy was repaid by Peter helping Voldemort rebirth in a way that used Harry's blood (and not just anyone's blood). Which makes you wonder if Dumbledore knew more about that secret-keeper switch than he let on.

It's probably a flint, but there really doesn't seem to be a way for Dumbledore or Hagrid to know so much about the Potters' deaths unless they were privy to the secret hiding place. And the only way for them to know that was to have been told by Peter.

Maybe the whole GoF was misdirection by Dumbledore. He pretends to be upset that Harry is in the tournament... pretends to be worried. But meanwhile, Peter's feeding him information and taking orders, and using basic reverse psychology on Voldemort to make sure that Harry's blood is used.

Might help explain why Dumbledore never notices his good friend Moody is actually a Death Eater.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Might help explain why Dumbledore never notices his good friend Moody is actually a Death Eater.

And why he doesn't seem to be trying to find out who could have put Harry's name in the Goblet at all, despite claiming to be upset that he's in there to begin with. (Of course, he also doesn't try to keep him out of the Tournament once he's in either, or looking out to see if anybody's helping him when he's winning.)

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

And don't get me started on faux!Moody. Particularly not on his so-called confession.

We are supposed to swallow his story that everything which happened at the World Cup just took place *then* by sheer *chance*? Give me a break. That plot had to go off with hairsplitting accuracy if it was to work. Voldemort had the whole thing drafted out a year in advance, and was prepared to wait a year before he was reborn, and we are supposed to believe Barty's claim that his father's Imperius just arbitrarily lifted at the World Cup by *accident?*

Excuse me, but the *whole point* of Barty going to the World Cup was to create an incident which would get Winky sacked. Tom and Peter had no chance of rescuing Barty from his father so long as Winky was on hand. And it had to happen *then* while there was still time to brew the Polyjuice, yet nothing, *nothing* in that "confession" admits that anything to do with the World Cup brohaha was *planned*.

Re Tonks

[aasaylva.livejournal.com]

The sad thing about Tonks is she had such a lot of potential which had nothing to do with being the girl-friend or lover of anybody (being a cousin to Sirius AND Regulus AND Draco; being a half-blood AND from a very old family; being a metamorphmagus; being an auror; being a young adult woman (the only one apart from Fleur in sight). My feeling is there was a whole fat storyline which was simply cut, but then JKR had a completely pointless character on hand and thus did what's easiest: make a chick out of her, heartsickness and pregnancy-induced radiance included.
With Ginny, the reverse seems to have happened: I don't think she was ever meant to be anything else than Harry's future wife - only sometime between GoF and OofP, the author decided Ginny needed more personality and independence, so exit Ginnychick and enter GinnySue - only to revert to Ginnychick in DH, making the whole personality transplant even more pointless than before.

Re: Re Tonks

[anehan]

With Ginny, the reverse seems to have happened: I don't think she was ever meant to be anything else than Harry's future wife - only sometime between GoF and OofP, the author decided Ginny needed more personality and independence, so exit Ginnychick and enter GinnySue - only to revert to Ginnychick in DH, making the whole personality transplant even more pointless than before.

Which is funny in a sad way, because I think Ginny actually had more of an independent personality before OotP. Her crushing on Harry was cute and very believable, she did all kinds of embarrassing things, we knew that she was a chatter-box, she was afraid during the play at the Quidditch World Cup, etc.

Re: Re Tonks

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

I get the feeling that there wasn't so much a storyline that was deleted, but a "cool idea" for a character that she had to throw in because it was so cool, and then hadn't clue of what to do with her.

She's not the only example of this kind of thing in the series either. But she's probably about the worst of them.