OotP Chapter Eight
Dec. 14th, 2007 10:22 am![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
sistermagpie.livejournal.com posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
deathtocapslock* That dungeon really is scary, and the chairs that chain you all by themselves is a great touch. Umbridge is there in shadow at first before she's revealed to be Ugly and so Evil. Also a nod to the Pensieve we'll be seeing later.
*Note that both Dolores and Fudge remind Harry of Vernon, JKR's least favorite character. There's no greater evil in this universe than having a thick neck.
*ETA: Reading that paragraph now it makes me think of that article on ferretbrain that wonderfully explained why JKR is not, as she's so often described by fans, the master of Chekov's gun. Chekov's gun says that if you introduce a loaded gun in the first act it needs to go off in the fourth. JKR's rule is just that if you're going to shoot a gun in the fourth act, you have to introduce it in the first. As she's doing here--Umbridge doesn't need to be in this scene, but she must be introduced before she appears, as does the Pensieve.
* Harry's Percy-hate is kind of interesting in that at one point he's goaded into speaking specifically by Percy's nod. He really can't stand him-why? (Percy is so sympathetic in CoS.)
*ETA: Now we know. Harry has to really hate Percy because Percy's going to prove himself really bad later. One of my many most hated moments in DH (this one's easily in the top 3) is when Harry looks at a picture of Regulus Black with the Slytherin Quidditch team and--completely OOC for Harry--identifies with the "sense of belonging" Regulus must feel on the team. Wha...? Harry's looking at a picture of the Slytherin team and identifying with the Seeker? Why? Duh--he's doing that because Regulus is going to be revealed to have turned out okay in the very next chapter!
*From the moment Dumbledore enters you can tell this is all about him. Harry is such a pawn between him in whatever maneuvers he's planning at any time. Fudge is trying to get Dumbledore's creature and Dumbledore is there claiming overship over him while not acknowleging Harry at all. I don't think this has to do entirely with Dumbledore's "I can't act like I know you in front of the Voldemort in your head," particularly since everybody knows Dumbledore favors Harry. It almost reminds me more of that scene in LotR when Frodo talks to Faramir without really acknowleging Sam--except Frodo is following understood social forms and his relationship with Sam isn't creepy and based on lies.
*Dudley doesn't seem to be considered a potential witness. He can't see Dementors, but he could feel them easily enough. When Mrs. Figg comes in they want to check and see if she's on record as a witch, and seem ready to toss out her testimony for being a Squib as well. Not that anyone has prejudice against Muggles besides the Malfoys. Wizards just don't consider Muggles equal enough to take their word on anything.
*And yet, Mrs. Figg seems to be lying anyway, and obviously too. Once again, nobody actually wants a system based on truth and fairness, they just want one that goes the way they like. Mrs. Figg feels the Dementors just like Dudley, but lies because you have to see them because witches can. If you're not magical, you don't count.
*Her lie almost sinks her, and it's only Amelia Bones being impressed with her account of feelings that sways things-impressing Amelia Bones appears to be your only ticket to freedom. They got off because there was "one of us" on the jury, one who was influencial.
*Note that Amelia Bones is "one of us" just as Susan Bones is. Not that blood is important at all.
*Not only do wizards not know anything about Muggles but they don't know about Squibs either. Shouldn't this stuff be known so that Figg can't lie?
*Dumbledore's telling Fudge the laws just rings so painfully hollow. He's exactly like everybody else, pulling out laws to smugly checkmate somebody and stop them from whatever thing they're planning to do, rather than honestly living under a sensible legal system. What do you do if neither Dumbledore nor Amelia Bones believes you? I guess we could ask Sirius Black.
*You know, it seems like if Fudge hadn't gone to the trouble of having a criminal trial for the equivalent of driving without a learner's permit he might have gotten Harry expelled or at least punished in ways he doesn't this way. What's the point of this trial, again? Besides atmosphere?
Designated Hero:
Dumbledore, with a nod to all those pro-Muggle wizards who still seem to consider Muggles something like chimps.
IITS:
Fudge's plan to humiliate himself with this big trial.
Idiot World:
Can't Amelia Bones just take over everything?
Informed Attributes:
Harry's Patronus didn't seem like that big a deal in PoA, back when he did it in front of a crowd. Plus later on every kid in the DA seems to produce one. Is the Informed Attribute Harry's ability to produce Patronus or teach it amazingly well?
Ken and Andrew’s Rule of Plot Holes:
If Fudge knew about the hover charm, why wasn't Harry thwapped back in second year? (Not to mention, why did Hermione seem to get to practice at home, but let's stick with this.)
Nut o’ Fun:
The chair with the scary chains!
My final score: 6
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Date: 2007-12-14 04:10 pm (UTC)Yes. IC would be him noting "They look as ugly as our Slytherins". I am really curious what are the other hated moments. :) Will you do recaps of DH afterwards? Have been waiting for them since the book came out.
fictualities wrote in her post "do check out sistermagpie's ongoing weekly read-through of the series on thedarkisrising". Have you read-through other books besides HP and thedarkisrising? Can you give a link, please?
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Date: 2007-12-14 04:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-12-14 05:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-12-14 05:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-12-14 05:34 pm (UTC)I have started doing a readalong of The Dark is Rising series on a fangroup for that book and am now halfway through the first book of that series. I haven't done any other books that I remember.
Dark Is Rising Readalong?
Date: 2007-12-16 07:51 pm (UTC)Re: Dark Is Rising Readalong?
Date: 2007-12-17 10:04 pm (UTC)Re: Dark Is Rising Readalong?
Date: 2007-12-18 04:44 am (UTC)Re: Dark Is Rising Readalong?
Date: 2007-12-18 01:38 am (UTC)Re: Dark Is Rising Readalong?
Date: 2007-12-18 04:45 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-12-14 06:03 pm (UTC)Don't remind me! When I read that scene for the first time, I actually perked up, thinking Harry was starting to change his views towards Slytherin and it would have made sense for him to start with someone he didn't know personally (and thus had no aversion for) and who was related to Sirius. But woe, I was wrong, so wrong (sobs).
Note that Amelia Bones is "one of us" just as Susan Bones is. Not that blood is important at all.
You know, I think it really isn't in this case. It's that she is on their side (thus earning the label of being fair). Maybe that is the main difference between Slytherin and Gryffindor (I've been pondering that for some time because they seemed to grow more alike with every book): that for Slytherin it is indeed blood (read family) that counts. If you are family, you belong - if you don't, you don't. This explains why muggleborns are not accepted by Slytherins - they just don't fit in, like pariahs in Hindu society. Whereas for Gryffindor, it doesn't matter where you come from as long as you back Gryffindor. With this in mind, the undercurrent idea of Gryffindors as muggleborn champions makes sense: they are fully accepted as long as they wholeheartedly support Gryffindor. This concept gives a weird meaning to dumbledore's slogan of the choice that matters; maybe he wasn't talking about moral choices there...
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Date: 2007-12-14 06:39 pm (UTC)When I read that scene for the first time, I actually perked up, thinking Harry was starting to change his views towards Slytherin and it would have made sense for him to start with someone he didn't know personally (and thus had no aversion for) and who was related to Sirius. But woe, I was wrong, so wrong (sobs).
Gah! Yes, it's so annoying. That books was so freakin' self-centered, proving that that was the obvious goal of the series. It was all about Harry understand his own true awesomeness and not really opening out at all. So even somebody like Regulus who's an obvious parallel to Draco (the Slytherin Seeker Harry's known all his life) he has no reason to use the one to understand the other. No, Regulus was just a kid like Harry and wow! He was a hero! Draco was never a kid like Harry.
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Date: 2007-12-15 02:53 am (UTC)This bothers me so much. In a criminal trial where the judges are supposed to be some of the most accomplished wizards in the world, not one of them knew that squibs can't see Dementors but can feel them? That seems like something that should be common knowledge among wizards! Squibs are just completely ignored by wizarding society. Dumbledore seems like the only person who will give them the time of day, and that's only because he uses everyone to his own purposes equally.
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Date: 2007-12-15 04:17 pm (UTC)Yup--and also to show how he's more progressive than anyone else, even though he would never get to know Muggles etc. on their own terms. He, like Arthur, just sort of studies the "good Wizards" ideas about them and considers themselves experts experts. All of which makes no sense when you consider how many Wizards actually born Muggles.
Response:
Date: 2007-12-15 08:27 am (UTC)This scene totally prepares you for BDSM!Umbridge. When the quill-punishments begin, they clearly appear as a manifestation of the Ministry's inherent creepiness and subsumed sexual deviance.
[Imelda Staunton did this particularly well, I think, writhing on that throne while surrounded by the wince of adolescent pain. She is fabulous beyond measure.]
*ETA: Reading that paragraph now it makes me think of that article on ferretbrain that wonderfully explained why JKR is not, as she's so often described by fans, the master of Chekov's gun. Chekov's gun says that if you introduce a loaded gun in the first act it needs to go off in the fourth. JKR's rule is just that if you're going to shoot a gun in the fourth act, you have to introduce it in the first. As she's doing here--Umbridge doesn't need to be in this scene, but she must be introduced before she appears, as does the Pensieve.
One could also describe her practice as placing a gun on every fucking mantle available to her. The Goblet of Fire? There is a gun inside it. Fawkes? He swallowed a gun a long time ago and now fires bullets when he defecates. The Sorting Hat? Stuffed in there before the Sword of Gryffindor? A gun. Kreacher? Secretly a gun the whole time! A gun that falls in love with Harry Potter.
It's like she retcons these deeper, more-intricate readings of characters and events into her stories without actually providing us with definite cues. We are shocked and amazed when things happen, but not because her story-telling is deft and we can clearly see how the plot-twists she lays in have arisen organically from the story. No, we are shocked because we could never in a million years have seen these things coming. But she's strewn "clues" about so haphazardly that we point to the gun on the mantle and say "See?! Clearly she was planning this all along."
I guess it's for convenience's sake that we ignore the gun on the bathroom counter, the one next to the kitchen sink, and the one sitting atop the computer monitor.
[Actually, I do not know that this speaks to your point. I'm just rambling, now.]
* Harry's Percy-hate is kind of interesting in that at one point he's goaded into speaking specifically by Percy's nod. He really can't stand him-why? (Percy is so sympathetic in CoS.)
Harry is the barometer of this story's moral universe. If Harry dislikes someone, even for a really petty reason, he is intuiting some deeper, darker intention on the character's part. It will always bear out that Harry Potter is Right.
Isn't that the whole point of the series?
*Her lie almost sinks her, and it's only Amelia Bones being impressed with her account of feelings that sways things-impressing Amelia Bones appears to be your only ticket to freedom. They got off because there was "one of us" on the jury, one who was influencial.
Part of me really wishes we'd seen more of Amelia Bones. There was a deeper plot there, something more to be discovered (aren't the Bones listed as the victims of one of Voldemort's earlier attacks?). It troubles me that J.K. insisted on keeping things shallow here, when she could have done a great deal to make this character's choices believable and interesting. Instead, she's merely another puppet of Dumbledore.
*Not only do wizards not know anything about Muggles but they don't know about Squibs either. Shouldn't this stuff be known so that Figg can't lie?
Even the "best" wizards have no fucking clue about any of the demi-humans (Muggles included) around them. The moral ambiguity would have made for a really interesting reading of the text if the theme hadn't seemed to be so completely unintentional.
Response (cont.) :
Date: 2007-12-15 08:28 am (UTC)He'd let you know that, even if they don't believe you when it's most important, all you have to do is wait a bit; they're bound to travel back in time and fix everything for you later.
Re: Response:
Date: 2007-12-15 09:44 am (UTC)WIN. And so true.
If Harry dislikes someone, even for a really petty reason, he is intuiting some deeper, darker intention on the character's part. It will always bear out that Harry Potter is Right.
Isn't that the whole point of the series?
Unfortunately, yes. And, so it would seem, his father before him was also able to do this.
Re: Response:
Date: 2007-12-15 01:13 pm (UTC)One of the most ironic things about this series seems to be that when JKR puts little thought into characters, they appear to have depth and act believably. It's only when she pulls them centre-stage or else tries to make them likeable (and her only way of doing this is to show their allegiance to Harry, Lily or Dumbledore) that they turn out to be flat and 2D.
Re: Response:
Date: 2007-12-15 03:05 pm (UTC)Which would account for the way her non-hardcore fans (as opposed to the hardcore ones, who insist that everything she does is golden) seem to regard the series. If you point out the flaws to them, they tend to laugh and agree that HP is pretty much crap - they just love it anyway. Maybe it's because a lot of them hate all the details but love the general idea.
Re: Response:
Date: 2007-12-15 04:02 pm (UTC)Yes! I think that's it exactly. Because the folks I know who liked the books (that aren't hardcore, of course) are the sort that read it once, put it down and don't really think about it again. It was a fun ride and they're happy. But this is why I think the books aren't going to last for that long. Because most of the people who enjoyed it aren't going to ever read them again and won't think to buy the books for other people.
Re: Response:
Date: 2007-12-15 04:12 pm (UTC)Re: Response:
Date: 2007-12-15 04:15 pm (UTC)Before DH I remember reading peoples' lists of all the guns that had to go off, and most of them didn't seem like guns to me. But actually when you go by the way JKR's stuff usually works, you could see how they all potentially were seen that way. When anything can be a loaded gun, it's hard to tell!
Isn't that the whole point of the series?
It seems to be, yeah. Which is a great way to look at life, where if you dislike someone it's because they're a bad person, while if someone dislikes you it means they're...a bad person.
no subject
Date: 2007-12-15 04:32 pm (UTC)You know, it would have made so much sense for JKR to start laying the ground work for dark!Dumbledore here in OotP. Instead of wasting time having Harry interact with Snape (since that's a relationship that went nowhere, in the end), have him interact with Dumbledore and be put off by the man and start to wonder if Dumbledore is as perfect and noble as he's been led to believe. It would have added some interest and tension to their scenes in HBP, and it would have nudged readers in the direction JKR wanted them to go.
Basically ask the damn question she spent so much time answering in DH. Because while
One could also describe her practice as placing a gun on every fucking mantle available to her.
[...]
But she's strewn "clues" about so haphazardly that we point to the gun on the mantle and say "See?! Clearly she was planning this all along."
I guess it's for convenience's sake that we ignore the gun on the bathroom counter, the one next to the kitchen sink, and the one sitting atop the computer monitor.
I honestly can't think of a "gun" involving the Dumbledore of DH. And this is a place where she could have dropped one.
no subject
Date: 2007-12-15 05:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-12-15 06:23 pm (UTC)And that just leads up to that creepy speech of Dumbledore's at the end about how much he loves him (even though he's planning on having him killed--so that house cup back in PS was supposed to pay for that, I guess).
Well, the house cup combined with the Prefect badge. That's why Dumbledore was so upset he couldn't give Harry both.
no subject
Date: 2007-12-16 03:56 am (UTC)Definitely.
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Date: 2007-12-18 04:46 am (UTC)"I've totally thought that the dark fics with predator!Dumbledore sexually abusing Harry read a lot more true after DH. But then JKR had to go and say that Dumbledore is gay, so now I don't like to make that link because of the horrible gay=pedophile implications..."
Maybe I'm being thick, but why are abuser!Dumbledore fics less disturbing/more desirable if he's not declared gay? *scratches head*
no subject
Date: 2007-12-18 07:28 am (UTC)I suppose it comes down to J.K.'s portrayal of minorities in general: if one evil character also happens to be fat, no problem. But when every fat character is also evil, then there's an issue.
When one gay character in a work has strange proclivities for younger boys, we can accept that as a sort of natural variation among a fair-sized population -- but only if the other fags in the work are presented as having varied tastes (and, frankly, one of the other fags should comment on the inherent creepiness of that obsession). But when the only visible/outted homosexual character in a work has a stereotypical and offensive character trait, it's not only creepy within-text, it's, like, meta-creepy as well, in that it reveals that J.K.'s worldview isn't as peachy-keen as we would have hoped.
[Hopefully this diatribe clears things up a bit. And, since I'm not horridporrid, I can't claim to speak for zir or offer zir thoughts on the subject one way or the other.]
no subject
Date: 2007-12-18 05:39 pm (UTC)It's not the fics themselves that I was thinking about, it was more that pointing out the "creepy undertones" in the way Dumbledore treated Harry became political because JKR says Dumbledore is gay.
I felt I'd either face the headache of people accusing me of linking homosexuality to pedophilia, or (and I think this would be even worse, frankly) people saying that yes homosexuality is linked to pedophilia "and we're thrilled you agree with us!" And I've been too lazy to take those battles on. ;)
But when the only visible/outted homosexual character in a work has a stereotypical and offensive character trait, it's not only creepy within-text, it's, like, meta-creepy as well, in that it reveals that J.K.'s worldview isn't as peachy-keen as we would have hoped.
She's not been doing herself many favors has she?
no subject
Date: 2007-12-18 07:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-12-18 10:24 pm (UTC)So I was commenting on the canon relationship, not fanfic. (Though since I used fanfic as an example I can see how I was confusing. Sorry about that.)
no subject
Date: 2007-12-18 07:36 pm (UTC)I get that aspect, but if you're reading a Dumbledore-molests-Harry fanfic, aren't you already picturing him as a gay pedophile? Why does a statement from the author change that from something you (general you) can enjoy into something you can't? Or at least, can't feel good about enjoying? *still puzzled*
no subject
Date: 2007-12-21 08:07 pm (UTC)Ahem. I almost hate to point this out, because it's such a politically incorrect thing, but there's another character who, while not outted, has the sort of characteristics that signal "sissy." That's Professor Slughorn, who obviously has a thing for young, attractive students.
Of course, he seems to be as interested in attractive young girls as boys, so it's not quite as in line with
con-Christian mythology of homosexuals, but, if JKR had teased us by saying there was one character in the series who was gay... well, he'd be in the top five. (Along with Lupin, Sirius Black, Hooch, and Harry, of course. :))
Heads up, Magpie!
Date: 2007-12-18 11:59 am (UTC)Re: Heads up, Magpie!
Date: 2007-12-18 02:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-04 11:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-05 12:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-02-04 04:17 am (UTC)But Harry always meets the DADA teacher before getting to Hogwarts, logic be damned. (Leaky Cauldron, bookshop, train, Crouch in the woods, trial, Snape at the gate)
no subject
Date: 2009-02-04 04:37 am (UTC)