OotP Chapter Twenty-Eight

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

*How long are Parvati’s eyelashes that she can curl them around a wand? Or how skinny is her wand?!

*Note that Parvati’s smirk is accompanied by her doing something vain. Any girl who would curl her eyelashes obviously doesn’t know what she’s talking about.

*There’s been a lot of discussion about Hermione’s line about not liking horses, and I’d always remembered the line wrong. I had some idea that Parvati and Lavender were going on about loving his horsey-ness (like how lots of girls are horse-crazy) and Hermione was making fun of them with her line, but no, Hermione’s just out of nowhere making a strange remark and Parvati and Lavender are shocked by it. I have to admit reading it now that I don’t see how Hermione’s line isn’t just the kind of insult she’d be looking furious about if it was directed at someone else. (For instance, "I don’t care Lupin’s been fired. I’ve never really liked wolves." Lupin's not a wolf and Firenze isn't a horse.) Not that this stops her from reminding us how awful Umbridge is for the way she hates part-humans.

*"Not very good, poor thing," said Lavender sympathetically. I call unnecessary adverb.

*Divination is now in one of those classrooms not used regularly. I hope whoever had sex in there last cleaned up.

*You know, call me cynical but I find Parvati and Lavender’s response to a different species refreshing after the constant swings between EVIL RACISTS and TEDIOUSLY POLITICALLY CORRECT WARRIORS. They seem to just think Firenze is a sexy guy while thoughtfully noting his different needs (Realizing he can’t go up a ladder.)

*Firenze, being a martyr for political correctness himself, bruises.

*"Did Hagrid breed you?" Go Dean. You can see more and more why he’s cool enough for Ginny.

*As impossible as it is to believe that Hagrid would breed anything halfway intelligent except by accident, it’s a little disturbing that Dean has no trouble believing that Hagrid is breeding horses with humans out there in the forest. Either Dean doesn’t know what breeding entails (in which case Ginny'll learn him soon enough), or Hagrid shouldn’t be teaching. He really is better suited to be the pervy groundskeeper.

*Here is written the fortune of our races, for those who can see. Harry, would you care to tell us what it says? Because if something’s written for only special people, obviously you should be able to read it.

*Parvati is offended by Firenze’s tone and his insults to Trelawney, but appears to listen nevertheless. Parvati doesn’t seem to resent the more competent teacher the way Harry would resent Hagrid’s replacement. I guess that’s because she’s shallow.

*Firenze’s main point is that knowledge is not foolproof. While on the surface one might expect that to be a good lesson for Hermione because she's the grind, I don't think Harry and his friends need yet more proof that knowledge is untrustworthy and they’ll need to go with their heart. Just the fact that Harry is intrigued by it makes me suspicious. He always knew actual knowledge and logic was too flawed!

*So again Divination is a waste of time, but necessary given that the main character is at the center of a super secret prophesy and all. ETA: It's not like anybody's going to think, "Hey, what if we pretend the non-Chosen part of the WW could potentially have the power to bring down Voldemort?"

*Firenze makes a point of how day-to-day things are too trivial for centaurs to read in the stars. Of course he knew about Harry. Nothing about Harry is trivial!

*Hagrid has earned Firenze’s respect for the care he shows all living creatures. Boy do I now feel ashamed for not respecting Hagrid for being one of those overly-sentimental, irresponsible pet owners who buys inappropriate wild animals to coop up and loves them above people because he gets to speak for them and sees no reason he should care if others are hurt by them.

*Also, releasing populations of new animals into an ecosystem when they get too much for you to handle is always a great way to care for an ecosystem.

*Harry’s happiness over the Quibbler article has long since evaporated, so if you’ve stopped feeling sorry for him for even a second you’d better start again right now because his life is one long series of worries and problems. Jerks.

*There are more important things than keeping a job, says Hagrid. Like tying up one’s brother like an animal, for instance.

*If not for the DA lessons Harry thought he "would be extremely unhappy." As opposed to being awfully unhappy, which we just spent several paragraphs hearing that he is now.

*Harry knows the DA is going to receive outstanding on their DADA owls. How does this work, exactly? Is he following the lesson plan for things that are supposed to be on the OWLS? Because it seems like he’s teaching them how to duel, not how to deal with various dark creatures and magics. They should already know most of these spells. Harry isn't actually ahead of them academically in the subject.

*ETA: LOL! The DA did *not* receive outstanding on their DADA owls of course. Even Hermione only got an E (her only non-O). Harry remains head and shoulders above everyone else in DADA even after teaching them everything he knows.

*Finally we know Seamus is actually good since he’s calling to Harry to look at his Patronus like a happy kindergartener. I suppose telling other students about the DA is okay, is it? Because Dean told Seamus? Too bad Marietta didn’t just tell Millicent Bulstrode and tell her to tell Umbridge.

*If I didn’t know that JKR’s favorite animal is an otter, and therefore one of the best Patronuses one could have, I would be completely confused by Hermione’s. Her personality is about as un-otter like as one could get and it doesn't seem like she knows too many otter-like people either.

*Why is Dobby still banging his head against the wall when he disobeys an order since he’s free now? Force of habit? Not to mention, why be afraid of Umbridge when you knocked Lucius Malfoy on his arse?

*Harry runs towards the boy’s bathroom—well, there’s a first. The boys do have bathrooms!;-) ETA: More on that in the next book!

*Trip jinx, Potter. ‘Nuff said. :-D

*Fudge says he’ll tell Lucius his son caught Potter. I’d almost like to see Lucius’ face when he heard that. He'd probably be waiting for the other shoe to drop--he caught Potter and then what? He was mounted against his will by Hagrid's rampaging Snoopleox? He was pushed into a tub of warm snot? The castle fell on him in protest?

*Let’s just be clear about the usefulness of Hermione’s curse, shall we? It didn't alert the DA they’d been outed, it didn't keep them from being outed. It didn't alert the DA as to who outed them. Fudge himself brings Marietta into the room as "the informant," so Harry doesn’t need to see her face to know she’s the one--and I don't think she's even got the pimples at that point when the damage is done. What it does do is spitefully punish and mark Marietta, which shows where everyone's priorities lie, if there was any doubt.

*I’m always kind of surprised by the satisfaction some people feel in this scene just because we don't know the character at all. Also I just naturally picture her having been genuinely uncomfortable with the DA and thinking she was doing the right thing by telling, rather than assuming she's a cowardly person of no character. She's just kind of there because somebody has to do it.

*Too bad Tom Riddle’s little group didn’t have a Marietta.

*Naturally, Hermione’s hex will not cause the entire DA to be angry that Hermione didn’t tell them they were signing up to be punished that harshly if they ever disagreed with the complete stranger who casually asked if they’d like to work on DADA together.

*Btw, Marietta? Not much of a sneak, really, is she.

*Ah, here’s the evil reason why Willy wasn’t prosecuted for evilly hexing toilets. Yeah, I’m so buying that people are horrified by this "blatant corruption" when they don't hesitate to use this sort of thing to their own advantage. Also it's funny to think cutting deals with petty criminals is what’s considered blatant corruption (when that’s fairly common in the justice system where I live, at least, and the order works with petty criminals itself) and not any number of other things done in the WW.

*Seriously, the level to which the good character's personal feelings dictate what should be the law is kind of staggering. That must be some Ministry after the Trio reforms it. Those guys wouldn't be able to genuinely do anything wrong if they tried: "I wiped out a town full of children, but they refused to get out of my way so I'm afraid I can't in good conscience find myself guilty."

*Funny the way this is all about Harry recruiting people for a group when Hermione did it. It would totally damage morale if anybody thought anyone else had any good ideas or use except Harry.

*Good job on that memory charm Kingsley, and with Dumbledore’s blessing too. Hey, here’s a thought. Why not memory charm frigging UMBRIDGE, FUDGE OR PERCY? Jesus, if you’re going to give people these magical re-set button powers why do they never use it where it would do the most good? Clearly it’s not corruption or anything to have an Auror tamper with a witness that way to cover up the truth when it's the right truth.

*And btw, there are a dozen other kids in the group and there’s this thing called Veritaseum...

*Nice of Dumbledore to not let anybody manhandle his student after he her mind's been safely tampered with. Of course, he doesn’t have much trouble with the Dursleys manhandling Harry...oh, who am I kidding? If Dumbledore is saying something an honorable, responsible teacher would say you know he’s got some ulterior motive and he’s probably doing it to bug somebody else.

*Don’t suppose Mr. Super-Powerful Dumbledore could undo Hermione’s spell on Marietta, huh? Yeah, didn’t think so.

*Ah, the parchment. That lists everybody's names. And so actually helps the DA get caught rather than hinders it at all. Nevertheless, Hermione's awesome pustule curse was really the only thing between the good students of Hogwarts and years of torture. Really.

*Dumbledore sees the title on the parchment and smiles. HE IS SO TOTALLY LOVED BY EVERYBODY BECAUSE HE'S GREAT AND TWINKLY! LOOK HOW CORRECTLY LOYAL THEY ARE TO HIM! IT'S ALL GOING ACCORDING TO PLAN!

*And while we’re at it, if Marietta can be reduced to a docile sock puppet of Dumbledore’s with an easy spell, why not just zap the Slytherins that bother everyone so much too?

*Good thing Fudge is too stupid to notice that Dumbledore’s not even concealing the fact that he’s doing exactly what he wants. Was the focus on Harry just a cover for focus on Dumbledore all this time?

*I still fail to see why Dumbledore doesn’t tell Harry why it’s so important for him to practice Occlumency now that he’s on his way out. Well, maybe I do. It seems the important thing is almost always to prove you’re loyal to Dumbledore on faith. If you ask for an explanation you’re a bad guy. (This gets uncomfortably close to some bizarre--to me--explanations of how the Christian God works that I've heard, and I'm not sure Dumbledore isn't supposed to reflect that here.)

*Evil!Minerva theorists: note that McGonnagal asks Dumbledore where he’s going. ETA: ::sigh:: I loved ESE!McGonnagal.

*Note also he’s not going to Grimmauld Place because dude, who would want to live there? It might interfere with Sirius’ life of quiet (or not so quiet) desperation.

*Phineas disagrees with Dumbledore on many counts. Well, yeah. Phineas is a bigot.



Designated Hero
Go Dumbledore, using those kids like chess pieces. And it’s nice to know Kingsley can be counted on as well.

Exploitation Filmmakers’ Credo Idiot Picture Idiot World
Um, Fudge? How long is it going to take you to figure out that when Dumbledore is smiling and being nice it means you’re doing what he wants?

IITS
Hold on, lads. We can do memory charms! All we have to do is zap Fudge, Umbridge, Percy and those few kids from Slytherin who’ve only got one brain between them anyway. C’mon, let’s...wait, why aren’t we doing that?

It’s almost like the Monster Death Trap proviso, only the trap actually worked and they still can’t use it twice.

Veritaseum? Anybody do Legilimency? Pensieve? If only there were some form of magic in this world we could use to find out what actually happened at any time! Dammit!

Informed Attributes
The kids are going to do great on their DADA OWLS, even though they appear to have spent the year learning wizard boxing as opposed to learning about the kinds of things that have been taught in DADA thusfar, except the Patronus, which Harry will impress everyone by knowing but no one else will be asked to display.

Light Bulb Moment
Everybody catch how Dumbledore got the idea to sacrifice himself when he read the parchment? Good.

Whooshing Powder
Phineas calls it "style." Personally, I love the idea of everybody running out in the hall and finding Dumbledore trying to sneak away after the flashpot effect.

Final Jabootu score: 7

Comments

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

The answer JKR gave was something like this:

Marietta's pimples did eventually fade, but the scars remained forever. Which great, because JKR hates traitors!

Which, regardless of how you feel about the current lawsuit, is a pretty interesting angle on it.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I'd love to hear JKR fudge this one if someone ever brought it up.

Probably she's not a saint and anyway she was just getting a jab at Lavender and Parvati the idiots and doesn't really think of Firenze badly. Same reason Hagrid can call them mules without being bigoted.

Good point. We're supposed to think Parvati is dumb again, why? She seems to be one of the more intelligent Gryffindors here.

She seriously often does.

A prophecy which Dumbledore basically told Harry was complete crap and that he shouldn't think on it.

Yeah, I'll never get how that works. First he's all smart about how Voldemort's too dumb to know not to follow the Prophecy, but then he follows it too. Which is fine since at least on his end the Prophecy is supposed to end in his victory, but it's hardly a lesson in how divination isn't real.

I don't remember the old interviews, but did JKR say whether or not the jinx got removed in the future?

I believe she said that eventually the pimples did go away, but she did always carry scars. And then added that she loathed a traitor.

[baeraad.livejournal.com]

This gets uncomfortably close to some bizarre--to me--explanations of how the Christian God works that I've heard, and I'm not sure Dumbledore isn't supposed to reflect that here.

I have no doubt whatsoever that that's exactly what's going on. Rowling mixes the metaphor by having Dumbledore claim that Harry is much better and more virtuous than he is in the end, but Rowling is always mixing her metaphors. For most parts of the books, Dumbledore is God Almighty and virtue is defined as trusting him implicitly.

It gets even clearer in HBP, with Dumblefore claiming that he and Harry are "friends." I would not call a relationship "friendship" when it consists of one party calling all the shots, being considered right in every argument, and all in all having very little use for the other party except as a source of awe and admiration. But nevertheless, this is how Christians frequently describe their relationship with God - He is their "friend."

I have to wonder at some people's idea of friendship.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I've also gotten that sending someone to hell for an eternity of torture for not believing in him is totally like a parent teaching a child it's dangerous to cross the street. Errr...what? Of course this isn't the universal Christian viewpoint or anything, it's just it surprises me that somebody would make that comparison themselves and think it works.

[kaskait.livejournal.com]

*As impossible as it is to believe that Hagrid would breed anything halfway intelligent except by accident, it’s a little disturbing that Dean has no trouble believing that Hagrid is breeding horses with humans out there in the forest. Either Dean doesn’t know what breeding entails (in which case Ginny'll learn him soon enough), or Hagrid shouldn’t be teaching. He really is better suited to be the pervy groundskeeper.

I think it is creepy that the book even mentions this possibility as a valid possibility. Then dress it up with Parvati and Lavender having major crushes on Firenze.

*Too bad Tom Riddle’s little group didn’t have a Marietta.

Tom's extra speshul powers of perception would have sniffed out any Mariettas. But Harry is sooper speshul so he didn't even need to learn how to use those talents. That just shows how loving he is and that he just lets Hermione be his heavy. Good Cop, Bad Cop. It was Tom who needed a Hermione.

Yeah, I’m so buying that people are horrified by this "blatant corruption" when they don't hesitate to use this sort of thing to their own advantage. Also it's funny to think cutting deals with petty criminals is what’s considered blatant corruption (when that’s fairly common in the justice system where I live, at least, and the order works with petty criminals itself) and not any number of other things done in the WW.

Real Criminals loves themselves some Cooperation Agreements with the possibility of early parole. Yes. They. do. But in the WW it is bad to use Cooperation Agreements but using Unforgiveable Curses is a-okay. CAs would just ruin that possibility in the WW. How else could the Wizards practice UCs without a pre-made, justifiable reason to be noble?

*Evil!Minerva theorists: note that McGonnagal asks Dumbledore where he’s going. ETA: ::sigh:: I loved ESE!McGonnagal.

Well she still condones Unforgiveables so maybe she is partly ESE.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I had forgotten the Unforgivables! I must take what I can get...

[papier.livejournal.com]

The Otter patronus was used as shipping evidence for both R/Hr and H/Hr. R/Hr said 'it's similar to a weasel, therefore it represents Ron!' and I distinctly remember some H/Hrs saying 'Otter rhymes with Potter!'

Oh, and who wants to bet there was a bully in Rowling's class called 'Marion'?

[kaskait.livejournal.com]

Oh, and who wants to bet there was a bully in Rowling's class called 'Marion'?

I wouldn't bet because it is a sure thing. And the girl probably wasn't even a bully. She probably said something vaguely upsetting to Rowling one time and Rowling still holds the grudge till this day.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

LOL! That's great. I said below I could consider that otter=Ron because he's the best member of the weasel family for Hermione, but Ron still doesn't really strike me as an otter.

[artystone.livejournal.com]

Is there anyone in this entire series LESS otter-like than Hermione?

[ms-comfit.livejournal.com]

I read that it was more specific: As her Ladyship was working on the fifth book, school headmaster in Marietta, Georgia removed the series from his classrooms, calling them "inappropriate". By creating Marietta, JKR was showing us what happened to people blindly obey authority (a.k.a. the headmaster).
Then again, I also remember reading that Marietta represents everything that Hermione turned away from in Book One when she lied for Harry and Ron, and that by jinxing Marietta Hermione was declaring her allegiance with Harry. And also that Marietta was actually Bellatrix Lestrange, so in HBP Bella was going to turn up with pustules. Aaaaaand also that Marietta deserved it because she was trying to get Harry sent to Azkaban.

So, yeah, maybe take that Georgian headmaster thing with a pinch of salt?

[elanor-x.livejournal.com]

Any girl who would curl her eyelashes obviously doesn’t know what she’s talking about.
Agreed. Any girl who would need to curl her eyelashes obviously wouldn't know what she was talking about. Ginny's looks are faultless without her batting an eyelash to achieve the perfection!

Divination is now in one of those classrooms not used regularly. I hope whoever had sex in there last cleaned up.
But there is no sex between students in canon Hogwarts, sistermagpie. They are too way too young for that. Think about the children!

Harry remains head and shoulders above everyone else in DADA even after teaching them everything he knows.
Yes, Harry is the best one in the only 2 subjects that count - Quidditch for popularity & DADA for his future career as an Auror and additional awesomeness.

Her personality is about as un-otter like as one could get and it doesn't seem like she knows too many otter-like people either.
What is an otter-like personality? Which Patronuses would you give to the Trio? Dumbledore and Voldemort? *is curious*
Now I had the image of Dumbledore as Cardinal Richelieu in The Three Musketeers with a fox Patronus. Hermione's Patronus probably would be an owl, Ron's a small dog like in canon and H's & Ginny's I am unsure about. Would V's be a cobra? Do you think Harry's Patronus is suitable? I certainly can't imagine Ginny as a doe!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

What is an otter-like personality? Which Patronuses would you give to the Trio? Dumbledore and Voldemort? *is curious*
Now I had the image of Dumbledore as Cardinal Richelieu in The Three Musketeers with a fox Patronus. Hermione's Patronus probably would be an owl, Ron's a small dog like in canon and H's & Ginny's I am unsure about. Would V's be a cobra? Do you think Harry's Patronus is suitable? I certainly can't imagine Ginny as a doe!

I tend to think of otters as playful and fun. I've heard them described as representing the need for play, for not taking things too seriously. Which makes sense as the antithesis of Hermione, at least. Maybe her Patronus represented one day where she actually did that and she had fun.

I do think Harry's makes sense, but the thing about Patronuses is it's not consistent what they have to be. I forget what Harry's memory was, but iirc it was connected to his finding out he was a wizard? So his Patronus represents his "real family" and his father as his guardian spirit. Tonks and Snape have the person they're in love with. Aberforth has whatever that goat is supposed to be, presumably his little sister somehow.

So I had figured Hermione should probably have a Ron Patronus because he and Harry are probably way important to her and he's the one she loves. I had considered the otter "was" Ron, but that doesn't quite seem like the kind of animal he is--but maybe JKR would disagree. So I'd have expected maybe a dog--which is what Ron's Patronus is. I'd have expected his to be something Molly-like since she seems to be his guardian spirit. Maybe a badger. Or if it were a dog, a bigger dog because Molly's no Jack Russel. Arthur's is a Weasel...maybe that represents his whole family because they're Weasleys?

[violaswamp.livejournal.com]

Dumbledore totally is Richelieu. I can't believe no one's brought that up before!

Of COURSE Ginny's patronus is a doe. Jeez. Ginny is a Girl!Harry, natch.

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

*There’s been a lot of discussion about Hermione’s line about not liking horses, and I’d always remembered the line wrong. I had some idea that Parvati and Lavender were going on about loving his horsey-ness (like how lots of girls are horse-crazy) and Hermione was making fun of them with her line, but no, Hermione’s just out of nowhere making a strange remark and Parvati and Lavender are shocked by it. I have to admit reading it now that I don’t see how Hermione’s line isn’t just the kind of insult she’d be looking furious about if it was directed at someone else. (For instance, "I don’t care Lupin’s been fired. I’ve never really liked wolves." Lupin's not a wolf and Firenze isn't a horse.) Not that this stops her from reminding us how awful Umbridge is for the way she hates part-humans.

I always thought this exchange was a continuation of Parvati and Lavender liking Divination, and Hermione despising it as "woolly" knowledge. With a layer of Parvati and Lavender being girly by liking the handsome new teacher, while Hermione is untouched by sexual feelings (until next year).

But, yeah, way to use speciest insults there, Hermione. It's sort of like Trelawney calling him "Dobbins" next year. (Odd to think that Hermione and Trelawney have a dislike of Firenze in common). I think this is actually JKR at her best, not really taking sides in this argument, but allowing Hermione to be a total (and unnecessary) bitch here.

In HBP, Parvati was disappointed when she heard that she'd be taking Divination from Trelawney instead of Firenze again. I know this is supposed to signal Parvati as crushing on Firenze, but to me it opens up this fascinating idea of Parvati having talent and interest in Divination from the get-go, going from a mediocre teacher in years 3-4 to an extraordinary teacher in year 5, and dying to get him again so that she can really learn the subject.

Just like there seemed to be this great Draco story going on in HBP just off-stage, there seemed to me to be a great Parvati story. A story about spiritual questioning and awakening, and a struggle to learn something that cannot, essentially, be learned. That Parvati is East Indian seemed even more appropriate because (although
not really knowing much about it at all), that non-knowningness seems to be a important part of Buddhism. Or, maybe non-knowingness, but not wantingness?

You know, in HBP, everyone seemed to be having a more interesting time than Harry was. Draco, Snape, Parvati, the Twins putting the squeeze on Zonko's... even Lupin and Tonks, dreary as they turned out later, had that exciting werewolf-spying stuff.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I always thought this exchange was a continuation of Parvati and Lavender liking Divination, and Hermione despising it as "woolly" knowledge. With a layer of Parvati and Lavender being girly by liking the handsome new teacher, while Hermione is untouched by sexual feelings (until next year).

Yes, I thought that too--Hermione doesn't seem to have anything against Firenze personally. She probably likes him better than Trelawney, even if she still thinks Divination's crap. But it's so weird having her say that--especially since I doubt JKR was really trying to show Hermione being insensitive. Bitchy to the other girls, yeah, but probably not insensitive.

That is a nice idea about Parvati actually being interested in Divination, maybe even a signal that Divination isn't just what Hermione says it is. Word on everybody else having a more interesting time in HBP. ::sigh::

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

LJ cut me off at 4000 characters!

*Let’s just be clear about the usefulness of Hermione’s curse, shall we? It didn't alert the DA they’d been outed, it didn't keep them from being outed. It didn't alert the DA as to who outed them. Fudge himself brings Marietta into the room as "the informant," so Harry doesn’t need to see her face to know she’s the one--and I don't think she's even got the pimples at that point when the damage is done. What it does do is spitefully punish and mark Marietta, which shows where everyone's priorities lie, if there was any doubt.

Sigh. What can one say about this DA fiasco? I know that everytime I brought up the logical, rational aspects of the parchment (that it was the parchment, rather than Marietta, that really doomed the students), I was immediately shouted down at SQ. I can't quite see why readers hate Marietta so much, because, even though JKR claims to hate "traitors," she does make Marietta very sympathetic. Who wouldn't sympathize with someone who was being pressured by her mother, who was worried she was getting involved in bad company?

But that's part of the wonderful split-brain JKRness. She seems to want us to enjoy the punishment given to the people who do Harry wrong--and yet she makes them likeable enough for us not to thoroughly enjoy it. Or she gives it an extra twist that makes me squirm. I'm with everyone else in thinking that Dolores Umbridge is the most unlikeable person in the entire series--and yet, I can't get behind her comeuppance when I consider her PTSD reaction to the sound of horse hooves. Or the kids laughing about it.

And, with both Marietta and Umbridge, there's this added frisson of sexual violence about their punishment. Marietta's pustules are strongly reminiscent of the scarring that's used to punish women for breaking sexual taboos. Would that connection be as strong if it had been Michael Corner instead of Marietta Edgecombe who had gotten perma-acne? If Gilderoy Lockhart had been carried off into the forest by Centaurs (which, come to think of it would be poetic justice for all his made-up Dark Arts victories), would we get that strong whiff of gang-rape from him? (Well, maybe from Lockhart. Let's make it Barty?)

Everybody catch how Dumbledore got the idea to sacrifice himself when he read the parchment? Good.
Hehe. I got the idea that Dumbledore was thinking to himself, "Shit! They have hard evidence!" when he saw that parchment. Also, I still think that the DA was invented by Hermione in order to distract Harry from his pointless battle against Umbridge--and probably Dumbledore was engineering it from behind the scenes. Actually, that might account for that super-strong parchment curse.

Phineas calls it "style." Personally, I love the idea of everybody running out in the hall and finding Dumbledore trying to sneak away after the flashpot effect.
Bwahahaha! I'd love to see that! It would be just the sort of thing French and Saunders would do if they made another HP spoof.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

But that's part of the wonderful split-brain JKRness.

I know! That's why interviews up until DH were so surprising--it's like she didn't realize she'd set Marietta up to have an obvious pov even though she didn't let her voice it much. But then there were a lot of people who didn't see the same other side I did, so maybe JKR really saw it that way all along and just wanted to make Cho look bad as well or something? And didn't have Marietta sound like a jerk because she was just hiding it?

[aasaylva.livejournal.com]

*I don’t see how Hermione’s line isn’t just the kind of insult she’d be looking furious about if it was directed at someone else.
I am not sure, but I suspect the real target of Hermione's insult is not Firenze at all, but Parvati/Lavender and their (gasp) girlishness. They get on Hermione's last nerve with their swooning, because she got over that stage in her second year and will soon have matured to cheating her intended into the Quidditch team (isn't it weird, BTW, that she's the one who claimed proudly that everyone got onto the Gryffindor team on merit?!?). Of course, the horse-calling remains strange and somehow even more arrogant and bigoted, because it clearly is not intended as an insult like Malfoy's mudblood-calling is.

They seem to just think Firenze is a sexy guy
This, together with the dissing of these girls once again shows that "real, good girls" do not find anyone sexy. They may be found sexy by the guys - that is to say by the bad (Slytherin) guys or the ridiculous immature guys (Ron). In the case of really good guys, this function is taken over by chestmonsters.

Parvati is offended by Firenze’s tone and his insults to Trelawney, but appears to listen nevertheless. Parvati doesn’t seem to resent the more competent teacher the way Harry would resent Hagrid’s replacement. I guess that’s because she’s shallow.
Above all, this is not because she might be impartial, it is just because she's a swooning fan-girl. Ginny would never be like that - for Firenze.

LOL! The DA did *not* receive outstanding on their DADA owls of course.
Good catch!

*If I didn’t know that JKR’s favorite animal is an otter, and therefore one of the best Patronuses one could have, I would be completely confused by Hermione’s.
Never knew about JKR; I just assumed it meant her future existence as Ron's wife, living in Ottery St. Catchpole. Also, what is it with JKR's obsession with ferrets and weasels and otters?



*Nice of Dumbledore to not let anybody manhandle his student after he her mind's been safely tampered with.
Oh come on, everybody knows it's a sign of lesser developped governments to use physical violence on their prisoners. The sophisticated way is to go for psycho-drugs. Dumbledore is up to date, here.

*Don’t suppose Mr. Super-Powerful Dumbledore could undo Hermione’s spell on Marietta, huh?
Why should he? She deserved it - if I recall correctly, this is a quote by the author herself, so I'm not snarking here.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I am not sure, but I suspect the real target of Hermione's insult is not Firenze at all, but Parvati/Lavender and their (gasp) girlishness.

Oh yes, I totally agree. I don't think she has anything personal against Firenze except maybe a little generic distaste for Divination. It's just weird that she makes this remark that is presumably supposed to be making fun of their attraction to him but is just kind of...wow, wouldn't expect you to say that, Hermione.

Never knew about JKR; I just assumed it meant her future existence as Ron's wife, living in Ottery St. Catchpole.

I'd forgotten that name! I just figured mustelids and otters in particular were JKR's favorite, so she sees them naturally fitting with her avatar.

[(Anonymous)]

(This gets uncomfortably close to some bizarre--to me--explanations of how the Christian God works that I've heard, and I'm not sure Dumbledore isn't supposed to reflect that here.)

I think I mentioned the "Faith in Dumbledore as analogue for Faith in God" thing in one of my (depressingly many) articles on late Potter (stay tuned for "An Ogre Is a Flesh Eating Giant: Why Rowling Doesn't Even Understand What A Goddamned Lexicon Is"). Since I'm actually quite *fond* of religion, I'd be quite content with that if the guy acted remotely Godlike, but he doesn't. You can't at the same time say "you must always have blind faith in Dumbledore" and at the same time say "remember, Dumbledore is fallible just like everybody else." If he's fallible, it's stupid to have complete unswerving blind faith in his every decision being correct.

*Evil!Minerva theorists: note that McGonnagal asks Dumbledore where he’s going. ETA: ::sigh:: I loved ESE!McGonnagal.

I've been meaning to ask for ages, what does "ESE!" actually stand for (I've always assumed one was "Evil" and one was "Secret" but couldn't place the other.

- Dan Hemmens

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yes--I think it was in your essay where you compared it to Narnia saying that some people don't like that Susan doesn't get to Narnia at the end of the books, but it's recognizable as Christian philosophy--and I agree. Where as with Dumbledore it's like...here's a flawed human character, but treat him with the kind of loyalty you give God. Even if I don't like the way people describe the relationship to God, I still get that they're giving him that loyalty because he's God. It doesn't work for a human character. Even in Christianity, total faith without question isn't considered a virtue in itself, only when applied to God because he is God.

I've been meaning to ask for ages, what does "ESE!" actually stand for (I've always assumed one was "Evil" and one was "Secret" but couldn't place the other.

Very close! It stands for "Ever So Evil."

[r-ganymede.livejournal.com]

ETA: LOL! The DA did *not* receive outstanding on their DADA owls of course. Even Hermione only got an E (her only non-O). Harry remains head and shoulders above everyone else in DADA even after teaching them everything he knows.

I always love it when JKR tries to make Harry super special in a contradictory way that ends up backfiring. So she goes through all the trouble of making Harry out to be this great teacher, but then goes against that later just so he can be the best at DADA. When even Hermione can't get an O, well, that's a sign.

I suppose telling other students about the DA is okay, is it? Because Dean told Seamus?
Let’s just be clear about the usefulness of Hermione’s curse, shall we? It didn't alert the DA they’d been outed, it didn't keep them from being outed. It didn't alert the DA as to who outed them. Fudge himself brings Marietta into the room as "the informant," so Harry doesn’t need to see her face to know she’s the one--and I don't think she's even got the pimples at that point when the damage is done. What it does do is spitefully punish and mark Marietta, which shows where everyone's priorities lie, if there was any doubt.

I never thought about it before, but seeing all this together makes me wonder if there ever actually was a curse on the thing they signed. I wouldn't put it past Hermione to just go for revenge on her own after hearing about what happened and then claim it was totally a curse Marietta activated herself by telling.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I always love it when JKR tries to make Harry super special in a contradictory way that ends up backfiring. So she goes through all the trouble of making Harry out to be this great teacher, but then goes against that later just so he can be the best at DADA. When even Hermione can't get an O, well, that's a sign.

That is exactly how it reads to me, that their great grades need to be all down to Harry, while he can't also have them at his level even though his only real skill is in his reflexes and being able to flip into hero mode at the right moment.

[(Anonymous)]

*I’m always kind of surprised by the satisfaction some people feel in this scene just because we don't know the character at all.

As so often, what throws me is the extent to which both JKR and certain Jofen are unaware that not everyone shares their tastes. It's "Marietta got what she deserved omgyay" rather than "I kink hard for revenge fantasies". One of the virtues of fanfic and fic-related meta is that eventually it teaches you the exquisite embarrassment of going about in public with your id hanging out.

If Dumbledore is saying something an honorable, responsible teacher would say you know he’s got some ulterior motive and he’s probably doing it to bug somebody else.

My DD bullshit detector tells me in this case it's about his self-image. He honestly thinks of himself as a noble man who'd never let a child in his care get hurt. There's an old fic where Snape's a pedophile who preys on first years, believing he has a tacit agreement with DD that his valuable services are worth one child per year. I loved that part because the ambiguity is so canon. We never learn if DD in fact has any idea of what's going on. But it's not hard to imagine him turning a blind eye to child abuse as long as it's not officially brought to his notice. Then his righteous wrath would shake Hogwarts to its foundations, though of course not hard enough to fire someone as useful as Snape.

-L

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

One of the virtues of fanfic and fic-related meta is that eventually it teaches you the exquisite embarrassment of going about in public with your id hanging out.

LOL! Yup, that's always embarassing. Though often disagreement just leads to more interesting ways of looking at it. Marietta literally becomes somebody whose whole purpose was to help Voldemort takeover.

ITA Dumbledore totally sees himself as the most noble of guardians who cares about kids more than anybody. Because it feels badly for a couple of hours occasionally about sending one to their death. A non-caring person, he figures, would never have that tear rolling down his face in OotP.

[moonspinner.livejournal.com]

it’s a little disturbing that Dean has no trouble believing that Hagrid is breeding horses with humans out there in the forest. Either Dean doesn’t know what breeding entails (in which case Ginny'll learn him soon enough), or Hagrid shouldn’t be teaching. He really is better suited to be the pervy groundskeeper.

I vote for the latter. The students know that Hagrid is just crazy enough to try that.

Although, I always thought that comment was totally off. Dean – as (within the strict text of the books) a Muggle-born – would not have ‘believed’ centaurs existed but would have known ‘about’ centaurs.

Parvati is offended by Firenze’s tone and his insults to Trelawney, but appears to listen nevertheless. Parvati doesn’t seem to resent the more competent teacher the way Harry would resent Hagrid’s replacement. I guess that’s because she’s shallow.

I always thought the two Gryffindor Other-Girls were made of awesome.

*There are more important things than keeping a job, says Hagrid. Like tying up one’s brother like an animal, for instance.

*squirms a bit* As much as I hate to have to defend Hagrid (as JKR does such a good job of it in every page of her series), I have to say that Hagrid did have the best intentions to Grawp by rescuing him from the other giants* and trying to domesticate him without endangering the human children.

(*Of course, we’ll never know if that decision was based on real dangers that Grawp faced with his own people – or on Hagrid wanting another dangerous pet .)

*Why is Dobby still banging his head against the wall when he disobeys an order since he’s free now? Force of habit? Not to mention, why be afraid of Umbridge when you knocked Lucius Malfoy on his arse?

I think it’s the ‘once a slave, always a slave’ syndrome. Although Dobby is a paid servant of Hogwarts and its inhabitants, he still sees himself as their slave. Don’t worry, all this will be resolved by the efforts of Hermione’s SPEW --- NOT!

*Fudge says he’ll tell Lucius his son caught Potter. I’d almost like to see Lucius’ face when he heard that. He'd probably be waiting for the other shoe to drop--he caught Potter and then what? He was mounted against his will by Hagrid's rampaging Snoopleox? He was pushed into a tub of warm snot? The castle fell on him in protest?

LOLOLOLOL!

*Nice of Dumbledore to not let anybody manhandle his student after he her mind's been safely tampered with.

And let’s not forget that while Dumbledore rushed to Marietta’s defence when Umbridge manhandled her, Kingsley’s mind-raping was completely right and just.

*Ah, the parchment. That lists everybody's names. And so actually helps the DA get caught rather than hinders it at all. Nevertheless, Hermione's awesome pustule curse was really the only thing between the good students of Hogwarts and years of torture. Really.

You forgot the Utter Fail of Ginny coming up with the brilliant name of Dumbledore’s Army in the first place.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I always thought the two Gryffindor Other-Girls were made of awesome.

Me too.

I have to say that Hagrid did have the best intentions to Grawp by rescuing him from the other giants* and trying to domesticate him without endangering the human children.

But that's what's so weird--you domesticate *animals* not people, and Grawp is supposed to be a person. Hagrid just went as an ambassador to these guys, who have their own social structure and language. So "rescuing" him gets into some icky issues to begin with. But okay, if we go with him being small so he's getting beaten up, so Hagrid says he'd be better where he is. But once he gets him home he's an animal incapable of human speech or thought and is tied up and domesticated? He can't be a pet and a brother at the same time--except he totally is.

Don’t worry, all this will be resolved by the efforts of Hermione’s SPEW --- NOT!

LOL! This chapter just gets all the weird primitive not-quite-human stuff out there.

You forgot the Utter Fail of Ginny coming up with the brilliant name of Dumbledore’s Army in the first place.

Brought down by their own sass princess. Imagine that.

re:breeding

[(Anonymous)]

I love this page and all the Jabooto things, but I do have to point out I think people got confused by the whole 'breeding centures' thing. I'm fairly sure that Dean doesn't think that Hagrid is CREATING man-horse hybrids, just breeding them together as you would normal horses.

Essentially he's acting like Firenze is just an animal, which I guess is kind of insulting, but a fairly natural thing to ask if you're brain happens to be on holiday at the time.

Re: breeding

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Ah, I see--so you mean Dean assumes that centaurs just exist and Hagrid is raising them, not that he created centaurs. That had not occurred to me, but it's definitely more pleasant. I think I associated them with the skrewts, which I think Hagrid did create by breeding two different things together, so figured Dean was asking if he'd created Firenze the way he had the skrewts.