Deathly Hallows Epilogue
Jan. 19th, 2010 03:21 pm![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
montavilla.livejournal.com posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
deathtocapslockThis is it! The end of the book. Thank you all for bearing with it. It was a long, hard road.
Looking forward to Sistermagpie's sporking of Prisoner of Azkaban!
Nineteen Years Later
There isn’t all that much to say about this epilogue that hasn’t been said before, but there is a definite change in tone as it starts with an idyllic autumn day as “crisp and golden as an apple.” People have called this epilogue treacle-y, but the sweetness is good after all that action and angst.
Either JKR did write this long before the tortured prose of the earlier chapters, or her relief at reaching the end was so strong that pours out on the page.
We are introduced gradually to the unnamed family. Harry speaks, so we know it’s him. The first child who speaks is Lily, who is whinging about wanting to go to school, too. It’s a bit of a shout out to Ginny’s first appearance in the books, and it’s absolutely bizarre how every single child in this series can’t wait to leave home for several months. There is not one of them who ever experiences the slightest bit of homesickness.
Albus is the second one named. And he’s whinging about the possibility of being placed in Slytherin House.
Ginny then tells James to give it a rest, which is slightly confusing because it makes it seem like James is the one complaining.
But then James cuts in to defend himself. “I only said he might be. There’s nothing wrong with that. He might be in Slyth—“
And then he stops at the look in Ginny’s eyes.
So, right away, we know a few things about this family: 1) They’re all whiners. 2) James is a bully. 3) Ginny is not to be trifled with.
And 4) Calling someone a Slytherin is such an effective insult that even the possibility of being sorted there is enough to cause tears.
James runs ahead like the minature alpha male he is, and Albus worries that his parents won’t write, or that they will write more than the once a month that James says is proper.
Harry tells Albus not to believe his older brother because James “likes a laugh.” Teasing brothers, lying to them, playing practical jokes on them—that’s all a laugh. It’s also a laugh to do that to other students. Unless it’s doing it to Slytherins—which is justice (pre-emptive or otherwise), or Slytherins doing it to anyone else, in which case it’s bullying. Got it. Only took me seven books!
They pass through the barrier and the steam from the Hogwarts express is so incredibly dense that Harry and his family are unable to distinguish any faces at all in the crowd. Harry hears Percy Weasley talking and is thankful that he can’t see him and therefore doesn’t have to talk to him.
I guess Percy hasn’t been completely forgiven after all.
The only people they are glad to see are Ron and Hermione and their kids. We find out their names are Rose and Hugo, and at least they aren’t named Arthur and Molly. I guess because Ron doesn’t feel the need to replicate his parents in his kids.
But I can’t help noticing that Rose and Hugo have the same initials as Ron and Hermione—and that they fit nicely with Ron and Hermione’s first dates: (Viktor) Hugo and (Lavender) Rose. I’m sure that’s all in my own head, because it’s so weird and random a thing to do with names. But there it is.
So, Ron tells Harry that Hermione didn’t think he could pass a simple driving test—which Hermione denies, but even I don’t believe her. Then Ron admits to Harry that he didn’t pass the test and used magic to cheat. So, we know that the wizard contempt for Muggle customs hasn’t changed. I find it kind of weird that Ron waited until his late thirties to get his driving license. Is that a British thing?
Oops. And here’s Ron threatening to disinherit his daughter if she doesn’t get into Gryffindor. Reinforcing the competition between Houses.
And right after that, we get Ron warily pointing out Draco Malfoy, his wife and child. Draco nods curtly after noticing all four Weasley/Potter adults staring at him. That’s pretty rude of them when you think about it. Has Draco been off in Portugal for nineteen years or something?
Also, Ron knows the name of Draco’s kid and demands that Rose beat the kid in every test. So… is this the weird Weasley/Malfoy feud continuing? Why the hell is Ron being so hostile to some kid he never saw before?
Could he be--gasp!--prejudging a child based on his feelings towards the kid’s father? Nonsense. Only bitter, twisted semi-evil old
Of course, I’ve read posts from readers who contend that Scorpius must be evil, like his father, because he’s named Scorpius. I don’t really understand that logic, although I guess there’s some evil character named Scorpius in some television show or something? Or is it a video game? Anyway, I doubt JKR had that character in mind when she wrote this chapter seventeen years ago.
And Scorpius Malfoy doesn’t strike me as any more inherently evil as a name than Sirius Black or Remus Lupin.
I can’t help noticing, also, that Ron gets to embody all this wizard prejudice towards Slytherin and the Malfoys so that we get to know that it’s still there—but Harry can be above it. And Hermione, who tells Ron not to start turning the kids against each other before they even start school—even though she just finds his attitude amusing.
And she’s right. There’s no need for that Ron. I’m sure that the school will do a perfectly fine job in turning them against each other through the course of the school year.
Then Ron tells Rose that Arthur will never forgive her if she ends up marrying a pureblood wizard. So, while we can hope that prejudice against Muggleborn is fading away, prejudice against pureblood is going strong!
Let’s see. Percy supposedly married Penelope Clearwater (Muggleborn) and Ron married Hermione (Muggleborn). Charlie didn’t marry anyone. Bill married a French quarter-Veela. Is Angelina Johnson pureblood or not? Did George get blasted off the family clock if she was? (Note: Most of this information comes from the documentary on JKR, not from canon.)
Then we get about a page of dialogue to inform us about the fortunes of various characters. Teddy Lupin is through with school and “snogging” the daughter of Bill and Fleur. Plus, he’s close to the family already through being Harry’s godson.
Neville Longbottom is the Professor of Herbology at Hogwarts (no mention of his barkeeping wife, though.)
James aims a kick at his little brother, teases him by mentioning thestrals, kisses his mother, hugs his dad, and runs off into the train. What a charming lad he is! Why, he reminds me of a young Dudley Dursley!
Poor little Albus is now about to throw up at the thought of invisible skeletal horses. Obviously this kid is not Gryffindor material.
Harry comforts Albus by telling him that thestrals are sweet and not scarey and that he won’t have to encounter then this year. Then he tells him that he actually knew a brave Slytherin once, that he and Ginny won’t stop loving him if he is sorted into Slytherin, and that he can just tell the Hat to put him somewhere else.
And that’s the moral of the story, I guess. Maybe you were born into that quarter of the population naturally inclined to evil—but you have the choice to ask the Hat not to condemn you immediately.
And maybe—just maybe—the Hat will listen.
Finally, we get everyone staring at Harry because he’s famous and Ron making a joke about it. The joke being that anyone might possibly be staring at Ron. Lest we were worried about it, we’re reassured that Harry is still the prettiest one!
And then the train leaves and Harry suffers a pang of separation anxiety. Ginny comforts him by saying that the boys will be fine. Harry touches his scar and tells her knows that—because the scar no longer hurts, which means that Voldemort is still dead.
And, since there couldn’t possibly ever be another Dark Wizard, all is well.
Fan Service:
Harry names his children just like a fanfic author!
Fan Slappage:
Draco is prematurely balding. Take that fan girls!
Harry named a kid after Albus Dumbledore. Ewww!
DVD Extras:
EXT: DAY – KING’S CROSS STATION PLATFORM
As the train pulls away, Harry and Ginny’s hands abruptly stop waving and drop to their sides. Ron and Hermione each grab onto one of Hugo’s hands.
HARRY
See you.
GINNY
I thought you were going to take Lily out for an ice cream.
HARRY
I have to get to work.
Ginny sighs. A tall young man with blue hair emerges from the steam clouds left by the train. It’s obviously Teddy Lupin.
TEDDY
I can take the kids, Aunt Ginny. I was hoping we could make it a holiday.
LILY
Teddy!
He hugs Lily, who runs over to him. Hugo follows, climbing familiarly onto Teddy’s back.
HERMIONE
You don’t mind?
TEDDY
Nah. Shall we go to Diagon Alley?
HUGO
Diagon! Diagon!
He gathers up the two kids and they all disappear into the steam. Ginny turns to leave as well.
GINNY
See you at home then.
Left together, Harry, Ron and Hermione smile at each other.
RON
Been awhile, Harry.
HARRY
It’s summer. There’s always more obliviating to do in summer.
They start strolling toward the parking lot. As they pass onto the street, Ginny can be glimpsed in the background crossing the street. She pauses at the doorway to a dark bar, looks around furtively, and then darts inside.
Harry slaps himself in the forehead.
HARRY
Sorry—I forgot something.
He turns back into the station. Ron and Hermione shrug at each other.
CUT TO:
Harry, walking through the steam clouds of the station. He is anxiously looking around for something. He passes a pillar, barely noticing that Draco Malfoy is lounging against it.
Harry stops and does a double-take.
DRACO
Potter.
HARRY
Where’d your wife go?
DRACO
She had a thing. Noticed you staring earlier.
HARRY
Shut up. (There is an awkward silence.) So… Leaky Cauldron?
DRACO
I already booked a room.
Harry nods curtly and turns to go. Draco draws his wand and points it at Harry’s back.
DRACO
Expelliarmus!
Harry’s wand flies out of his hand and clatters to the platform. Draco scoops it up.
HARRY
Draco! Goddamnit! Stop that!
DRACO
(grinning) I’m the Master of the Elder Wand! I’m the Master of the Elder Wand!
HARRY
(rolling his eyes)
Please. You are not. That’s been over forever.
DRACO
(handing Harry the wand) Then who is?
HARRY
Some vagrant in Knockturn Alley, I think. Happened my first day as an auror.
DRACO
Doesn’t that worry you? Maybe he’ll go steal the wand.
HARRY
Like he remembers. He was dead drunk at the time.
They grin and walk away side by side into the mist, knocking their shoulders together.
CUT TO:
PARKING LOT – KING’S CROSS STATION
Ron and Hermione get into their car. Hermione immediately sticks a magical device (which is most definitely not a Bluetooth headset) into her ear and pulls a pile of papers out of her briefcase.
HERMIONE
Don’t forget to check your mirrors.
RON
(annoyed)
I was going to!
HERMIONE
You always forget. (She touches her device in her ear:) Thickness? Did you get that brief about Elvish welfare I sent you?... That’s the one…. No, it isn’t a step backward… Let me explain.
Ron frowns and throws the car into reverse to back out of the parking spot—without checking the mirrors.
Ginny appears briefly in the back window, weaving slightly as she walks.
With a THUD, the car stops and Ginny abruptly drops out of sight.
Ron and Hermione glance at each other puzzled.
HERMIONE
What was that?
RON
Speed bump.
He pulls forward and speeds away, as a crowd of Muggles gasp and run to Ginny’s body, which is lying on the pavement.
FADE OUT
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2010-01-21 06:37 pm (UTC)---“People have called this epilogue treacle-y, but the sweetness is good after all that action and angst.”
No it isn’t.
---“ Ginny is not to be trifled with.”
No sh*t? Seeing as she has to be subservient to the Mighty Potter 24/7, yet we know what a total bitch she is, there’s only one possibility. The children get it in the neck from their mum. Poor bastards.
---“Harry tells Albus not to believe his older brother because James “likes a laugh.” Teasing brothers, lying to them, playing practical jokes on them—that’s all a laugh.”
The fact that the twins were presumably supposed to be admired for their increasing nastiness indicates that this is exactly how JKR thinks. Not to mention James’ hideous grandpa and namesake.
Ginny is dead – hurrah! Actually, I suspect that the magic that helped Ron pass his test would help him drive a lot more safely than the average Muggle – which is why I didn’t care much when I read about Ron faking his test. It happens too much amongst Muggles I’m afraid, plus the increase in driving whilst drunk/high/on a mobile etc. If Ron could fly from London to Scotland aged 12, he’s probably still better than the average driver in London (she said, from bitter, London born and bred, experience).
If someone had to die instantly, it should have been Hermione – one of the biggest failures in characterization of the series. Harry/Dumbles etc. were in trouble by OotP, but Hermione was on the way down in PoA. Not because she told on Harry’s mysterious new broom – that was saving him from his own stupid self. More because of the inflexibility with which she refused to accept that Crookshanks might have had something to do with Scabbers disappearance. She had no idea that Scabbers was Pettigrew - she just seemed more interested in defending her cat, than understanding why Ron might be so upset/hurt after a losing a family pet of 12 years. I remember being startled at her as I read. She didn’t have to accept any guilt, just not be a hard as nails, compassion-free b*tch. She was stressed out in PoA, it's true, but it was sadly a recurring theme in the later books and compounded when Lavender’s bunny died. She wanted to prove herself right about Divination, & ignored how her words might affect Lavender – no wonder she had no other friends. JKR was probably at her best in PoA, she knew exactly what she was doing - she *deliberately* wanted Hermione to come across as more interested in her own intellectual beliefs than other people’s feelings (SPEW?) and I never understood why. It wasn’t a learning curve – there was nothing like that in this series - plus Hermione actually got worse over time. At the beginning, Ron and Hermione were my favourite characters – so I'm bitter at how she turned out!
My final plan for Ginny – the character I went from ignoring, to hating with a passion that risks my blood pressure - would involve total humiliation and a long painful goodbye. It was inconceivable that JKR should handle her so badly. It wasn’t because she suddenly became such a Mary-Sue – I’m not so admiring of JKR’s writing abilities that I’d find that surprising – but because she was so *unlikeable*. JKR could have made her sweet and humorous and brave and irresistible. Instead, despite basically starting from scratch in Book 5, she constantly added scenes which made her seem like a right cow. I should have rolled my eyes at her perfection, not wanted to rip the pages out of the books with my teeth. To summarize, JKR’s idea of what it means to be ‘nice’ differs quite strongly from mine.
I still wish we’d found out that that Voldemort’s last bit of soul had latched on to Harry’s and the Dark Lord lived again!! Though gay sex with Draco is a good enough alternative – he could always wear a toupee...
I’m looking forward to PoA, but is it the book or the film? I quite enjoyed the book, though it’s probably lost a little something with hindsight....
no subject
Date: 2010-01-21 09:56 pm (UTC)The magic that helped him pass the test is Confundus. He said he could use a supersensory charm instead of looking in the mirror, he didn't say he actually did so. Since we can't trust Ron to actually use that charm and we can't trust him to use the mirror we can't trust him to drive safely.
f someone had to die instantly, it should have been Hermione – one of the biggest failures in characterization of the series. ... JKR was probably at her best in PoA, she knew exactly what she was doing - she *deliberately* wanted Hermione to come across as more interested in her own intellectual beliefs than other people’s feelings (SPEW?) and I never understood why.
Curiously in one of the never-ending interviews Rowling said "And I think that she was-- I mean, I love Hermione. She went with Ron and Harry because she has a really good heart. That's not about brain. Ultimately, she had a bigger heart than she had a brain, and that's saying something for Hermione."
So there may have been at some point the intent of Hermione growing some heart but it got nowhere (or at least wasn't convincing). We see some of that attempt with the house-elves - she starts SPEW very principled but completely without thought about their own feelings. In OOTP when Dobby comes to the ROR to warn the DA she sees he is wearing all the hats which makes her realize her attitude was wrong. She attempts to correct this by being 'nice' to Kreacher - for example praising his part in the mission to tail Draco (wrong-headed again - Kreacher didn't want praise for that - it was a mission he was only doing by force of his master's command, but would have rather not been doing) or attempting to explain his pro-Voldemort stance (she was getting there but not quite - she got the point that elves have their own psychology but I don't think she really understood how it worked). Eventually Kreacher becomes civil with her because Master Harry acknowledged Kreacher's service to Regulus and thus became worthy of Kreacher's service, so Kreacher was willing to treat his friends according to his wishes.
no subject
Date: 2010-01-21 10:37 pm (UTC)As for Hermione – well she has me stumped. I don’t know how JKR can fail to see the issues with her character. It’s not that I want her to be perfect. I'm fine with her being so poor at people skills - it's far preferable than 'perfect', but I won’t be told how wonderful she is when she patently isn’t. You’re absolutely right about what should be turning points, but they just fizzle to nothing. Maybe I’m being unfair, though – maybe Harry is even worse at not living up to the hype than Hermione (and JKR herself...)
no subject
Date: 2010-01-21 11:14 pm (UTC)Look at the kidnapping of Rita Skeeter: Hermione caught a potential enemy spy (Hermione knows Rita is connected at least with Draco, might also be connected to the other Malfoys, besides her connections as journalist) in Dumbledore's improvised war room - and all she cares about is making her not write any damaging gossip about herself and her friends. She doesn't even tell Dumbledore that Rita knows:
- That Dumbledore knowingly hired a (former) Death Eater and was still using him as a spy
- That Severus showed his Mark to Fudge (another think to explain to Voldemort)
- That Dumbledore was sheltering wanted mass murderer Sirius Black
- That Dumbledore was reforming the Order (and she knows some of the names)
- That Dumbledore was using the Weasleys to recruit Ministry workers to the Order
- That Dumbledore had some task for Hagrid and Maxime
Rita could have harmed Dumbledore's cause in so many ways with this information without publishing a single article herself, yet nothing comes out of it. We only see Hermione victorious over Rita. At most one could conclude that the Quibbler interview Hermione forced on Rita helped rebuild the latter's reputation resulting in the popularity of Rita's book about Dumbledore, but even that had no significance.
Hermione gets away with so much criminal behavior because Rowling believes in the causes in whose name Hermione commits all those acts, and this just makes me angry with Hermione and her success (including reported post-war success).
no subject
Date: 2010-01-21 11:44 pm (UTC)As her bad behaviour grows and grows she should have been caught out before the main finale of the series. I'd have been happy if she'd been expelled after Scargate. Why would JKR let us know Marietta's reasoning if we weren't supposed to sympathize? (Reason 6273528 why I don't understand our beloved author). Umbridge would have jumped at the chance to remove one of Harry's main supports and it would have made perfect sense. Obviously Dumbles would re-instate her on his return, but preferably without her Prefect's badge so the 9 year olds reading would realise that Hermione was at fault - it wasn't just Umbridge being mean.
Also, while Hermione could come back for her exams, she needn't be there for the whole Ministry fiasco, which would read a lot better. A dominant character acting so timid and scared with Harry was a big disservice to both of them - they're supposed to be friends, does she think he'll hit her? If Ron made some half-hearted objection to Harry, you could believe that Harry could persuade him, but why ignore the official brains of the outfit? JKR had to write Harry as a bully and Hermione as a cowering wimp to make it work - and it didn't.
Also, Harry could come up with the whole 'It's in the Forest' lie which would be easier to take. We don't *know* what happened to Umbridge, but it seems unlikely that Harry would know of the particular danger, according to mythology. Plus we'd be privy to all his thoughts and *know* he was unaware of any particular risk. He'd just be floundering uselessly in the dark, looking for a way out - totally feasible! Hermione's actions left a bitter taste in the mouth.
I totally agree with you that Hermione gets away with appalling behaviour because she reminds JKR of her days at Amnesty - though she's more like an evil Dictator, than an innocent prisoner...
no subject
Date: 2010-01-22 05:55 pm (UTC)Yes. One of the things that I will never understand about Rowling is that she doesn't seem to see that certain acts (rape and torture, notably) are wrong in themselves, no matter who does them. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. And both Harry and Hermione's behavior in the last couple of books is often appalling.
no subject
Date: 2010-01-25 01:13 pm (UTC)Rape?????? Sorry, who raped whom in these books????? My mind is boggling!
BTW, original post above very funny. :D
I've enjoyed reading this comm, off and on. :)
no subject
Date: 2010-01-25 03:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-01-26 01:37 pm (UTC)It is????????????? Well, I've not read OotP for some years, but this reading of the text certainly takes me aback!
OK, I need some clarification here. Do you mean you think this horrific meaning is actually implied by the author herself??? Because, without wanting to sound like a 'canon whore' (LOL), whatever one thinks of Rowling's writing, her leftist credentials are fairly impeccable, e.g. worked for Amnesty International, votes for the Labour Party. I find it difficult (make that impossible) to believe that a woman in her position would intend or imply any sexual violence in her books. Especially as the books are Children's/Young Adult fare. (And wasn't her ex-hubby abusive, or something?)
Or do you mean this is something that readers have read into the text and that JKR is blissfully unaware that people could extrapolate this from the narrative? In which case, the theory seems really OTT to me ... especially for a children's book. For some reason I'm reminded of those feminist critics who interpreted Frodo and Sam venturing into Shelob's Lair as symbolising Tolkien's hatred of women (the tunnel representing the vagina and Shelob representing the dark side of female sexuality ... or something). And while I suppose there might be something in this colourful literary theory, mainly I feel like saying: HANDS OFF MY TOLKIEN, THANK YOU. :D Not that I feel about Rowling the way I feel about Tolkien ...
I agree with you about Harry's 'Crucio', and I dislike how Marietta is treated, certainly. But Umbridge being RAPED?????? Seriously, a book written for KIDS -- OK, teenagers -- in which the young heroes and heroines are mocking a woman who's been gang-raped??? I'm not buying it.
no subject
Date: 2010-01-26 03:49 pm (UTC)Centaurs in the Wizarding World are basically 'haughty' and 'noble', so unless otherwise guided, it's possible that readers will attribute to them the existing characteristics they have in Muggle mythology - including a real reputation for sexual violence. Like you, I’m not convinced, but I acknowledge the possibility. If JKR knew the first thing about Centaurs, which she should if she was going to use them in her world, she'd know that reputation. So why she had them carry off a woman into the forest as they frequently did in myths, without considering that people might think it ended in the exact same way, I'm not sure. (That said, everyone here has put a lot more thought into the series than JKR did after the first four books.) As I said above, if she wanted to use the 'woman being carried away by the Centaurs' idea, she could have made damned sure that she didn't put Umbridge's downfall in Hermione's hands. The extremely well read and intelligent muggle-born and bred witch who would have read every muggle fact about Centaurs the minute she realised they existed in her new world - probably before she first got on the Hogwarts Express. If Harry had led Umbridge to the Centaurs, we'd know his intentions were simply to 'escape' - because we knew his thoughts (and lack of basic knowledge). Hermione's characterisation was such that you could believe that she'd behave with malicious intent to another woman because she'd done it before. This was the girl who saw nothing wrong in scarring a girl for life for daring to put her mother's cause above the DA. Forgetting anything sexual, if the idea was that Centaurs wouldn't hurt children, she must have known that they *would* hurt Umbridge.
Anyway, my real problem (like mary_j_59) is that JKR made them all laugh at her after the event - *whatever* it was. Not because she was raped, I really can't believe Harry for one, was supposed to have realised that was a possibility, but because she got her 'come-uppance'. The woman was in total shock and had been through a bad physical experience and their behaviour was deeply in-appropriate for people we're supposed to admire and root for. It's all part of the culture she actively promoted that bullying and bitchiness is fine as long as your tie has red/gold stripes. Cruelty and torture are defined as being wrong not in themselves, but dependent on whose responsible. As an adult, I have no need for my reading matter to be morally sound, just entertaining, but really - this series ends as a moral cess-pit!
no subject
Date: 2010-01-26 04:40 pm (UTC)There's a difference between leaving a gap to create discussion/encourage imagination and leaving a gap for readers to invent their own rules and this is what JKR did again and again.
I agree. I am very fond of the HP books but I have often found HP fanfiction, and various HP theories, a lot more interesting than the actual text ...!!
As for centaurs equalling sexual violence, well, my first introduction to centaurs was through Narnia! And centaurs were benign and noble in that, if not to be messed with.
Anyway, my real problem (like mary_j_59) is that JKR made them all laugh at her after the event - *whatever* it was. Not because she was raped, I really can't believe Harry for one, was supposed to have realised that was a possibility, but because she got her 'come-uppance'. The woman was in total shock and had been through a bad physical experience and their behaviour was deeply in-appropriate for people we're supposed to admire and root for. It's all part of the culture she actively promoted that bullying and bitchiness is fine as long as your tie has red/gold stripes. Cruelty and torture are defined as being wrong not in themselves, but dependent on whose responsible.
Hard to argue with that!
As an adult, I have no need for my reading matter to be morally sound, just entertaining, but really - this series ends as a moral cess-pit!
For me that's a bit strong. I read HP purely for entertainment and at worst 'shallow' is the word I would use. I thought the first HP book was not unlike Roald Dahl's stories, with their sense of the humorously macabre and the horrible comeuppances for the villains and maybe, when all is said and done, the series really doesn't mature much beyond that in its various moral scenarios. I enjoyed reading DH, although it has plenty of flaws (plot holes galore, for one thing). But a redemptive arc is there, nonetheless.
It's not as if Rowling is the first children's author to come under fire: C.S. Lewis and Philip Pullman have their fair share of detractors!
no subject
Date: 2010-01-26 07:43 pm (UTC)My problem was that after DH I felt the characters most in need for redemption after the war was over were Harry and Hermione. That's not how one normally expects to find the supposed heroes at the end of their adventures and ordeals.
no subject
Date: 2010-01-26 10:40 pm (UTC)In the early books, despite a great deal of luck, Harry always does his best and is braver than you'd expect from a child. Fighting the Basilisk is his true 'heroic' high point. In PoA, even though you suspect he'll regret it, his heart's in the right place in saving Wormtail. By OotP, his reckless refusal to listen to the Official Brains of the Trio (and basic common sense) makes him culpable for Sirius' death. In Deathly Hallows, this continued recklessness gets Hermione tortured – he learns nothing about self-discipline in the intervening 1,000 pages since the events in the Ministry. It’s not even his lowest point – don’t forget torturing the enemy to 'teach them a lesson' - a truly evil act. He also does it from the safety of his Invisibility Cloak - a truly cowardly act.
Hermione started the series as a breath of fresh air. A character that was flawed, yet honest to herself and all the more attractive for it. Then JKR started adding the heartless, ruthless aspects, until Scargate in OotP showed her as a younger version of Umbridge. They were both happy to do unspeakable things in the name of loyalty to their 'boss'. I honestly see no difference between the basic behaviour of the two - with one exception. We're supposed to approve of Hermione's bad behaviour because she's on the 'right' side - she continues to get away with it throughout the rest of the series, with no hint that she’s wrong. This is never going to be acceptable to me - I think it's morally bankrupt. I believe the wrong thing for the right reason is still the wrong thing.
As the world is apparently going to end in 2012, I doubt there's enough time left for me to go into Dumbledore's failings - which as the obvious authority figure are even more damaging to the series. Then there are characters which started off well then suddenly crumbled at the end. McGonagall's ridiculous (and wildly out of {original} character) appreciation for Harry's use of the Unforgiveable is an obvious one. The twins started off relatively amusing and ended up as bullying gits with never a hint of understanding that they were ever in the wrong. Sirius and James Potter joined the list of characters that were not just realistically flawed, but downright unpleasant, with no hint from the author that it mattered.
Ron got a hint of redemption with the locket thing and facing up to his weaknesses, manufactured though that whole, over-familiar sub-plot was. Neville also developed over the series (though over the top at the end) but neither of them was that bad in the first place. The characters I believe JKR failed the most with, were the ones she tried the hardest to portray as heroes. Leaving aside the major plot-holes (agree with you there!) a real problem with DH was it continued the later HP trend for bullying, cowardice, arrogance and ignorance to be merrily accepted - even held up for admiration - if the 'right' people were showing those traits. In my opinion, HP didn't have a redemptive arc – it was more of a one way line plunging downwards...
no subject
Date: 2010-01-26 05:02 pm (UTC)Hmm. So, I decided to look up centaurs on Wikipedia for a little background information and there's a tidbit there that says JKR drew her inspiration from C.S. Lewis for the centaurs. Which makes sense to me. It's quite possible then that she ignored the association of centaurs with "lower" animal instincts and sexual violence. C.S. Lewis certainly did.
On the other hand, C.S. Lewis never included a scene where the centaurs carry a protesting woman away and she's later shown with twigs and leaves in her hair and post-traumatic stress.
What I remember from my kid's book of Greek myths is that Hercules' wife was tricked by a centaur into letting him carry her over a stream and that he then attempted to kidnap her. I think there was also the story of women being carried away from a wedding. Even as a kid I knew that wasn't for good purposes.
But it's really, really hard to tell with JKR whether she's not seeing the implications of her writing or whether this is a "joke" she's sharing with the adults and thinking it'll go over the heads of children. It's pretty clear that she meant Aberforth's meddling with goats to be taken as a sexual joke with adults (from her cagy answer to a 10 year old who asked about it). So, she's not completely unaware of what she's doing.
I wonder what it's going to be like for those 10 year olds when they start reading this series to their children. Sometimes when you revisit your favorite books as an adult you can be shocked at what you missed.
no subject
Date: 2010-01-26 05:08 pm (UTC)Well, yes. I love Narnia but have read some pretty harsh reactions to it from people who didn't read it as children and fell under its enchantment (as I did) but who have real issues with some of Lewis's politics.
In which case, I can feel as if someone just kicked my puppy. :D Because I loves my Narnia!!!!1111111 Not that I'm incapable of critiquing Lewis as an adult reader.
I'm honestly having a hard time believing that JKR would insinuate such a disturbing thing as gang rape. *shudder*
no subject
Date: 2010-01-26 05:47 pm (UTC)I would have had a hard time believing that JKR would insinuate someone having sex with goats. But it seems like she did.
But it's all that it is. An inference. A hint. We really have no way of knowing what was in her mind.
I find the Marietta thing just as shocking. I think JKR just finds it a comical commuppance, like Violet Beauregarde turning purple in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, but it brings up all sorts of disturbing associations for me, like shaving the heads of collaborators or scarring women with acid. Since JKR worked for Amnesty International, I find it hard to think that she wouldn't know about those practices and how abhorrent they are.
But would she make that connection? I really don't know.
no subject
Date: 2010-01-26 09:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-01-26 04:52 pm (UTC)She thought it would be cool to have Centaurs in the forest. Fine. However, traditionally, Centaurs have been attributed with committing rape against women (human or nymph) without a lot of provocation since ancient Greece. You cannot unwrite the role of Centaurs in mythology or literature. You could contradict it in your own version, but Rowling doesn't do that. So the element remains in play.
Since, as you say, the books were marketed for children, the aware reader is willing to dismiss this facet of tradition as inappropriate and irrelevant. *Until* Rowling throws us a situation in which the possibility is simply too prominent to ignore.
We would continue to ignore it, however, except that Umbridge's reaction after her ordeal is simply too extreme to be that of a bully who has merely been bullied in turn. And we know that Rowling studied classics, so *she* is certainly aware of the baggage involved.
Whether she actually *intends* for the reader to draw this conclusion is less apparent. I think that she can hardly be unaware that many of her college-aged and adult readers will do so. But for so long as she does not admit as much, the marketing of the books for children will loan her some plausible deniability. Which I am sure that she is more than willing to enshroud herself.
no subject
Date: 2010-01-26 05:12 pm (UTC)Could be. She doesn't pay that much attention to the Byronic/Heathcliff-type type archetype that Snape clearly embodies, for one thing.
But I am really having a hard time with the idea that she would ever imply RAPE.
Kind of reminds me of a theory much beloved by Tolkien fanficcers back in the day, that Frodo was gang-raped by the Orcs in Cirith Ungol. (GAAAAAAAH! No, precious!)
no subject
Date: 2010-01-26 07:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-01-26 08:00 pm (UTC)And you're right. If you can accept the inference that a child was raped by a gang of boys, it's not hard to see Umbridge being raped by a herd of centaurs. Especially since we also have Fenrir slavering over Hermione and being a metaphorical pedophile.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2010-01-26 09:38 pm (UTC)But let's not argue. We don't differ all that much, really. I do admire the sporkers here because I would never be able to force myself to read DH again. I haven't read many books that I enjoyed less, and I've never been so disappointed in the conclusion of a series. It's a pity, because I really loved the first five books, in spite of their obvious flaws. Now the whole series is wrecked for me.
no subject
Date: 2010-01-26 10:54 pm (UTC)I really enjoyed Goblet, despite the obvious 'why didn't 'Moody' portkey Harry out of there in the second week of September' plothole. I also enjoyed Order and Prince to a lesser extent, despite increasing dislike for some of the main protagonists. They rambled, but I'm easy about that as long as I'm entertained. It was DH that ruined the series for me - because it was boring. Once my mind started to wander, there were too many things for me to pick apart and my dislike for some characters turned to contempt. I ended up hating Harry and Hermione more than Voldemort and Lucius - how is that right?
I haven't re-read DH either and have no plans to - luckily montavilla has taken a MASSIVE bullet for the team!
no subject
Date: 2010-01-27 03:01 am (UTC)And it helped.
But this has really been a great experience for me. Especially reading all your comments!
no subject
Date: 2010-01-26 04:57 am (UTC)Heh. I've been reading the book to do the recaps and this will come up a lot in them. It's just weird. It's like the way Hagrid would respond to his pet eating somebody else's.