PoA Chapter Five

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Harry’s woken the next morning by Tom and a cup of tea. Harry really does get to live the life of a Victorian gentleman, doesn’t he? What innkeeper in the Muggle world wakes customers with a cup of tea?

Percy’s still with Penelope here. Are we supposed to assume they got married and had boring babies in the epilogue?

Mrs. Weasley is telling Hermione and Ginny about a love potion she made when she was younger and they’re all very giggly. Because there’s never anything for girls to talk about with each other ever besides guys.

And by “talking about guys” I of course mean plotting and scheming for how to catch them, because that’s how true love works. Girls just have to wait around for a chance to conk a clueless male of the species on the head and drag him off to her cave by his hair. Where he’ll be in charge after that.

This year we’ll all be chauffeured to school by a guy in green velvet. Yup, you won’t find service like this in the Muggle world.

To Ron’s disgust, Percy gets into the car with the Trio. Wow, the Percy hate in this chapter is strong. As far as I can tell the only reason for it is to set up Percy being a terrible bad guy for two books, but all he’s done so far is be stiff. Oh, and accuse Ron of intentionally sabotaging his stuff. Can’t imagine where he’d get the idea that his brothers would ever sabotage his stuff, can you?

The ride is uneventful, but Harry makes sure to notice that the old-fashioned Ministry cars are better than Uncle Vernon’s company car. Muggles suck so bad.

The Wizard car is like the Firebolt to Vernon’s Nimbus 2001.

The chauffeurs touch their hats in salute to Mr. Weasley before leaving. Somebody could do a really interesting paper on the Weasleys, class and money.

Ginny catches Harry’s eye and they both laugh at Percy’s showing off for his girlfriend. It seems like Ginny’s just showing her personality to be basically good natured and finding amusement in her funny family. Looking back perhaps this is a sign of Ginny’s awesome true personality that entirely consists of mocking others. SOULMATES!

Let’s take a moment to reflect on our two central canon couples. One demonstrates true love by the way they act like they can’t stand each other, the other bonds over how superior they are to everyone else. That’s how we know which ones are the sidekicks. The one couple insults each other; the other insults everyone else.

Mrs. Weasley kisses everyone and gives Harry and extra long hug. Which makes Harry embarrassed but pleased. I’m sure I found that sweet for Harry the first time I read this.

Harry says he’s not scared of Sirius since he couldn’t be any worse than Voldemort. Actually Harry, almost anyone would be worse than Voldemort as Voldemort’s an idiot.

Heh. Wouldn’t it be great to see Harry wind up in the Muggle world in trouble? Like, facing some low-level thug from The Sopranos or The Wire or the bad guy from any episode of White Collar or Leverage or even Law & Order. He’d be all, “Well, I know I can handle myself. They can’t be worse than Voldemort.” And then he’d be robbed, framed for murder or dead.

Before putting Harry on the train Arthur is sure to plant the idea in his head that maybe he ought to be looking for Sirius. He is a Gryffindor, after all.

That Arthur knows Harry has a reason to want Sirius dead just makes me wonder once again why that story wouldn’t be all over the papers.

It’s another example of how somehow a society that’s exceptionally small and intimate manages to be exceptionally unacquainted.

Ginny again shows a personality in telling Ron, “Oh, that’s nice!” at being told to go away. The personality I liked, I mean. Not the one from later books.

Neither Harry nor Hermione are apologetic about Ron’s very rude dismissal of his sister. Maybe if you all had treated the first Ginny nicer we wouldn’t have been subjected to the improved version!

The kids find Lupin sleeping in the compartment, looking worn and grey. Let’s not wake him up right away. Let us enjoy him while he’s still a cool character!

Okay, so why does the guy have a battered case that has his name on it, calling himself a professor, exactly? It seems obvious JKR’s setting him up to be the excellent teacher stereotype, only it doesn’t actually seem like Lupin’s a teacher except for this year.

Azkaban is also a much cooler place in this chapter than it ever is again.

Hermione reminds us the Muggles are out looking for Black too. They’d probably catch him a lot more quickly than Wizards with the right information.

Ron apologizes for his cheap Sneakoscope, which went wild as he was tying it to Errol’s leg. Because Scabbers was there. Get it? Only they chalk it up to Ron using Errol when he wasn’t supposed to. So basically the Sneakoscope is another one of those objects that seems useful but is actually completely useless, like the Weasley’s clock.

Hogsmeade is the only entirely non-Muggle settlement in Britain. Because Muggles are awesome!

And to prove my point, the best thing in Hogsmeade is a candy shop. Look, I love candy as much as the next person, but there’s plenty of them all over the Muggle world. Maybe they don’t carry candy that physically injures you, but I consider that a plus.

Also, Ron, you’re 13.

The Shrieking Shack is the most “severely” haunted building in Britain. I like that it’s not really that it’s the best haunting, it’s just the most severe since yelling comes from it.

Harry and Draco have been enemies since they met on the train to Hogwarts. Um, they met before that. But I guess Draco didn’t know they were enemies until the train.

Crabbe and Goyle seem to exist to do Draco’s bidding. Unlike, say, Hermione and Ron who exist to do Harry’s thinking and laundry and make Harry look good by comparison, respectively. They don’t have to do Harry’s bidding, they just get yelled at and shamed if they don’t.

Not quite sure what the point of Draco’s entrance was there, except to introduce him to the story, I guess. The scene just made everyone look a bit silly, really.

The train stops to let on Dementors, and the rest of the cast conveniently stumbles into the car. Now we’ve re-met everyone, can we get on with the story, please?

Harry faints at the sight of the Dementor, which he’ll pretend is embarrassing but really just shows he’s suffered more than anyone because his parents died heroically protecting him. Even if he has no way of remembering that whatsoever. Harry’s like Batman, in a way.

Ginny was shaking like mad because she, too, has met Voldemort. SOULMATES!

They have no chance to speak to Hagrid. So we dodge that bullet, at least.

McGonagall calls Hermione and Harry as soon as they get in. Harry’s not happy, as McGonagall always makes him feel like he’s done something wrong. Unless he’s just thrown a torture curse, in which case she makes him feel gallant!

Apparently Lupin’s carrying around chocolate for Dementors is early proof of what a great teacher he is.

Hermione leaves her meeting with McGonagall looking quite happy. Like, “given power over time itself” happy.

Luckily the meeting means they miss the Sorting. I sort of love the way JKR sets up all these things and then has to spend the rest of the series trying to find ways around having to write them again and again.

Okay, I spoke too soon about re-meeting everyone. One more person to meet. Dumbledore. Are we all here? Can we get on with it now?

Dumbledore is often described as the greatest wizard of the age, but that’s not why Harry respects him. He respects him because you can’t help but trust him. Yes, you just can’t help but trust him even when he’s dead and even though his plans are completely stupid and nonsensical and by all rights should have gotten you all killed.

Seriously, Harry, that’s not a good reason to respect someone. That just means they’re good at manipulating people.

The candlelight shimmers on Dumbledore’s beard. Ew. That makes it sound like his beard’s greasy or sticky or something. Beards should not shimmer ever.

Damn. One more person. Snape. Snape’s here too, looking less shabby than Lupin. Now we’re all here.

Next to him we meet our new teacher, Hagrid. And he’s already crying and wiping his eyes on the table. I hate this guy.

The Trio knows how much being made a teacher would mean to Hagrid, what with him not really doing anything to qualify for such a job besides being a friend of Dumbledore’s and never indicating any talent or desire for the job. Yup, this appointment is a real triumph for…trusting Dumbledore.

Harry feels he’s home at last, in the dorm. And it only took him 60 pages to get there. Compared to the books that are to follow, that’s pretty speedy.

I have to say after these chapters, nobody in this book seems 13.

Things happening twice:
Harry and Draco becoming enemies on the train to Hogwarts—just like James and Snape.
First use of a Patronus so we see it before Harry uses it. Though we don’t actually ever see what Lupin’s Patronus is.
I believe one of the first mentions of love potions.
Grrr! Percy is already so awful he's clearly evil! Clearly! Evil!
Harry and Ginny bonding over other peoples’ flaws: SOULMATES!
Remember how Vernon got a company car earlier? Now Arthur’s got a better one!
Again the Sneakoscope goes off, making for the third time we’ve heard of it.


It’s a gun. No it isn’t! It’s Chekov! No it isn’t!

Percy totally seems like a bad guy, doesn’t he? Look at how all the good people dislike him.
Status: Fired, I guess. Percy’s got to be some sort of lesson in not being completely loyal to Harry or something. Or maybe he was just supposed to be some genuine family drama, even if he really wasn’t.

What’s that thing that came out of Lupin’s wand?
Status: Fired. That’d be the main spell we’ll be learning in this book.




Designated Hero
Dumbledore’s set up as this awesome headmaster here, but he’s really already just showing favoritism.

Misdirected Answering
Funny how when Harry tells his friends that Arthur told him not to go looking for Black none of them, including Thinking-Brain-Dog Hermione, wondered what Black obviously has or had done to make Harry go looking for him.

Don’t worry, if Lupin wakes up and he’s hungry he can go to the front of the train to get food from the trolley lady. Phew! Glad that’s cleared up, it was really distracting.

Nut o’ Fun
What’s with that briefcase, Lupin? It’s not like you’ve been teaching long enough to have a battered case. In fact, why do you have any case at all?

Jabootu Score: 4

Comments

[octopuspatronus.livejournal.com]

Ginny was shaking like mad because she, too, has met Voldemort. SOULMATES!

This, as well as the revelation that Draco was also freaked out by the Dementors, reminds me that Draco has met Voldemort at this point, too. SOULMATES! <3

Ah, yes, that long, romantic stroll through the Forbidden Forest Harry and Draco shared in their first year, enjoying a comfortable silence in one another's company... unfortunately brought to an end with the sudden, horrific discovery of Quirrelmort feasting on the blood of a unicorn. Harry oh-so-bravely froze in terror, which was clearly a noble attempt to sacrifice himself so that Draco could have a chance to escape. It was all very sweet. It brings a fond tear to my eye even now.

Fun-fact, Draco ran off to find Hagrid and the others in order to save Harry. Originally there was a touching reunion scene after the discussion with the centaurs, but TPTB ruled it far too gay and thus had it cut-- which explains the strange disappearance of Draco from the scene. In fact, all further incidences where Draco strangely disappears from the book (see= Parseltongue reveal in the duelling club, the discovery of the petrified cat, others) mark another scene between Harry and Draco that was cut for excessive gayness. The more you know...

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Hee! I love that the books just got more and more H/D as they went on. With Ginny becoming more like him to get Harry to notice her--not to mention little parallels like this. I sort of want somebody to come up with some grand unified theory about how the whole series is an allegorical tale of Harry denying his sexuality with Dumbledore as a guide.

[octopuspatronus.livejournal.com]

I'm kind of tempted to get someone to point out to JKR that Ginny acts like Draco in order to get Harry to notice her. I think that either her head would explode or, more likely, she'd try to pull the "but Ginny is totes compassionate you guise!" card.

It's kind of weird how differently you take something depending on your POV. I remember you pointing out that Ginny/Draco thing however long ago and I totally went "::gasp:: Draco is nothing like her! Blasphemy!" for a few seconds before I facepalmed and laughed at myself. Because they totally are similar in all the worst ways. It's just that JKR does not seem to see it in Ginny. My own pov (probably yours, too) is that Draco's nastiness is believable as coming from his personality and vulnerabilities, where Ginny does it... for kicks? To attract Harry?

And like you said, what exactly does that say about Harry that it works?

Wait a minute! Draco has the type of personality Harry's attracted to, but unlike Ginny he believably has a softer, compassionate side (Occlumens, described as cutting away the parts of himself that would interfere with being a bully-- you can't repress something if you don't have it!). Not to mention that Harry isn't attracted to girls without the help of an Alien chest-burster. There, it's settled. Draco is Harry's true "ideal partner".

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It sounds crazy, but I can totally buy it! I think a big problem is that issue of Draco being vulnerable. Because whenever Draco's a bully he's always doing it from weakness, obviously. JKR usually makes sure his jokes are stupid or go on too long or feel desperate. Even the bigotry might as well be saying "I'm projecting my own inadequacies onto people I need to pretend are inferior to me!"

So Harry finds that repulsive, yet Ginny attracts him by being all those things, only from a position of strength and righteousness. When she assaults people they stay down, her put-downs shut them up and her insults and dismissals of everybody are just funny and true. And yet she's compassionate because she takes charge of vulnerable innocents like Luna and random young children in the battle. It's like that's the obvious other side to her constant meanness elsewhere. But Draco's compassion just sort of makes him a cowardly sissy.

I always loved black_dog's reading of HBP where he really did read Harry as attracted to Draco in the beginning. It's one of those times where it actually can totally read that way because it's so unintentional. It comes across way more naturally than the chest monster.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Unlike sistermagpie I can't buy it ... although I'd love to think of Ginny as being Draco-level evil.

Yes, like sistermagpie said, Ginny got nastier and nastier - more and more like that part of Draco - to get Harry to notice her, but still, there's a huge gulf between them.

Draco is a blond, Ginny is a redhead.

Convinced? No, wait, there's more. (Sorry, I'm a bit silly today.)

Draco's *evil*, or close to it. He wouldn't mind the death of thousands of muggles or muggleborn, as long as he didn't have to personally witness it. He gloated over Cedric's death. He hoped that Hermione - OUR HERMIONE!!! - would be the next to be killed. He was the direct cause of terrorists invading Dumbledore and the death of Dumbledore.

Ginny's a not very nice girl, but she's still a Weasley and overall, in the large scheme of things, on the side of the good guys.

(Unless Harry had become dark, hmmmm ...)

[oryx_leucoryx]

But Draco learned his lesson while Ginny didn't know there was a lesson for her to learn. Draco proved he has a conscience. Ginny doesn't have that word in her dictionary. I didn't like Draco of books 1-6, I wasn't impressed with Draco of book 7 until I started reading essays about him, but I'm convinced Draco came out of book 7 a decent person.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Meh. I think the ONLY way to equate Ginny with Draco would be to claim that Malfoy is 'redeemed' ... and that would be only half the battle at that.

I dunno. Okay, in book 7 Draco refused on a couple of occasions to kill or be instrumental in killing ... not identifying the Trio at the manor, beseeching Crabbe and Goyle not to kill Harry in the RoR. Hmmm. But in the RoR it's only *Harry* that Draco seems concerned about ... possibly for the actual reason given, Voldemort wanted him alive. That would be the only way Draco could have his family's prestige restored.

But anyway, that's only one half of the equation. Then you have to prove that Ginny doesn't have a conscience. Look, I don't like the girl - she's a nasty little thing on a small scale - but she still risked her life in the battle fighting the bad guys. Saying she "doesn't have that word in her dictionary" is going too far, I think. She happily makes people miserable on a small scale to satisfy her impulsive desires - maybe she doesn't think about what she's doing, maybe she overrides her conscience on that score - but that's a long way away from branded death eater badness.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

There are more badnesses in the world than just Death Eater badness. Look at Umbridge, a real hard-ass. She's downright cruel - Snape's taunts and detentions look like an evening out with friends beside her flesh-marring quill. She seems to be completely a-moral, attaching herself to whichever wagon's rising. She may or may not be acting from a deep-seated original position of weakness but she's horrible. If she once thought she was weak and needed to fangurl the rising star, she's moved beyond that. I thought she was probably the best villain at being villainous in the entire series just because of the nasty factor.

I was really displeased with Ginny's growth in the series. She went a completely different way than I would have expected from the earlier books. She's downright mean, in the same way that the twins are mean. I don't think any of them intend to hurt people or harm them, but they do. Thoughtless, acting before engaging brains. The Ton-Tongue Toffee, crashing into the stand when Ginny didn't like the commentary for examples. Maybe it's a Weasley thing since Ron seems to suffer from not recognizing other people's feelings either as he grows, but I'm pretty sure Rowling didn't notice.

Ginny may or may not have a conscience. It doesn't matter since she doesn't bother to think things through before she acts so the conscience can have a chance to kick in. The effects can be the same as an intentional Death Eater act. Taking the twins as more advanced versions of Ginny, think about the harm, not just hurt, done to - dang, I'm spacing today - that guy they shoved into the broken vanishing cabinet. They didn't think of what they might have done to him, they might not even know the cabinet posed a problem. But when he didn't turn up somewhere, they could have sounded an alarm. They didn't. Protecting themselves was more important than possibly saving someone's life. The trio contributed by not telling what they knew once the guy was found and stuck in the hospital for yonks. Withholding information on the nature of the injuries could have contributed to a longer treatment period while medical staff tried to figure out what happened.

IMO, Ginny was showing signs of going the same direction. She approved of Sectum Sempra, she foolishly rammed a broadcasting stand without regard to her own or others' safety. She used boys to get Harry's attention. It's a different thing to like a guy and go out with him and then find that you're not compatible than it is to go out with a guy just to look like you've moved on so you can get another guy's attention. That can hurt the guys she dates - not harm them, nothing Death Eater-ish here, but it's cruel. Leading back to maybe being a Weasley problem of not noticing that other people have feelings too.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Yes, Ginny evolved - or is that 'devolved'? - into a quite nasty little thing in the series. 'Downright mean' as you say. But only on a small scale; not on the scale of Draco's misdeeds - letting in the DE terrorists and so forth.

IMO, Ginny was showing signs of going the same direction.

That's what your argument boils down to - Ginny was heading towards the dark side (and Draco was redeemed/converted/good/less evil by the end of the last book). And I appreciate your points, and agree with them - your example of the twins and the vanishing cabinet is a good one.

Ginny just wasn't at that point by the end of the series. And neither were the twins. They were only 'evil' on a small, personal, just-for-my-kicks scale, and that's where they stopped. On a larger scale they were good guys and fought on the side of the good guys.

I'm probably in agreement with the original premise, that Ginny had to act 'more like Draco' - more mean, more nasty - to get Harry to notice her. But there was still a big gulf, a matter of 'scale', from where she ended up and where Draco had been, IMO.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

I think I just got off-track. I was originally going to mention that 'badness' doesn't have to equal Death Eater. There were other badnesses in the series. Then I got all sidetracked with examples and started to drift.

[oryx_leucoryx]

If Draco was so concerned for his family's prestige why didn't he become star of the day by capturing Neville and the rest of the DA? He knew how they communicated, and at least at first he knew more about the ROR than Neville (he managed to block it to Dobby, that's an achievement!). Instead he took the risk that the Carrows won't put two and two together (hey, Draco brought us to the castle through the ROR, how come he can't tell us how to get to the kids there?). If word had got to Voldemort that Draco wasn't doing his best to stop the resistance the three Malfoys would have been in real trouble.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Was blocking the RoR to Dobby such an achievement? All you had to do was wish for a room of privacy, a junk room, whatever, "in privacy", and the room would give it to you, wouldn't it?

I'm tempted to say that Draco's not dobbing in the DA in the last book was just another example of Rowling's "please don't go there, please stay within the yellow lines, go only where I want you to go" plot holes.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Was blocking the RoR to Dobby such an achievement? All you had to do was wish for a room of privacy, a junk room, whatever, "in privacy", and the room would give it to you, wouldn't it?

Considering Dobby's track record of getting into places where he wasn't wanted or which should have been protected from him and house-elves talent of Apparating where none else can I consider it an achievement. Especially as such a big deal is made of wizards ignoring or not considering house-elves. So whatever privacy request Draco made to the room, he made sure to cover all forms of beings, not just wizards.

I'm tempted to say that Draco's not dobbing in the DA in the last book was just another example of Rowling's "please don't go there, please stay within the yellow lines, go only where I want you to go" plot holes.

I'm pretty sure a lot of fan characterization that leads to sympathetic views of characters Rowling doesn't like and unsympathetic views of characters she does like is the result of those countless plot-holes and stuff she didn't consider or didn't realize. But the fact is she has Draco making a point in HBP that he made use of the DA's method of communication to contact Rosmerta and despite that the DA in DH uses the very same method without getting caught. I'm not going to start from her conclusion - that Draco was an unworthy evil sleaze - and based on that discard part of what I know about him because it's a plot-hole and only base my opinion of him on that part of the story that supports Rowling's conclusions.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

So whatever privacy request Draco made to the room, he made sure to cover all forms of beings, not just wizards.

I don't think that's that much of a terrifically huge 'achievement', but yes, Draco was clever there to cover all the bases.

(House elves are one of the gimmicks Rowling dreamed up to solve a couple of plot problems but never considered their full ramifications. They can beat up or kidnap wizards with ease, but no-one except Harry (or Riddle, in one case) ever thinks of using them for the war. They have awesome magical powers eclipsing those of wizards ... but came out fighting with pots and pans in the Hogwarts battle. But I think we've had a thread about the elves here on deathtocapslock recently ... or maybe it was on another thread I've been posting in.)

I've just checked and I see that the DA were using the same coins all throughout the seventh year, so you've convinced me on that point. Well, I still think it's just another one of those things that Rowling never thought about, but yes, if she was a competent author then Draco did hold off on informing on the DA's communication mechanism, and that adds to the overall 'Draco was less evil' :-) argument.

I'm pretty sure a lot of fan characterization that leads to sympathetic views of characters Rowling doesn't like and unsympathetic views of characters she does like is the result of those countless plot-holes and stuff she didn't consider or didn't realize. ... I'm not going to start from her conclusion - that Draco was an unworthy evil sleaze - and based on that discard part of what I know about him because it's a plot-hole and only base my opinion of him on that part of the story that supports Rowling's conclusions.

That's really interesting, what you said there, and had me thinking.

One of the biggest 'injustices' in the fandom's history, I think, is how many man years - man millennia! - were spent by fans in trying to deduce Rowling's plan, how she was going to stitch everything together, solve all the puzzles, answer all the questions, in those years waiting for the last book. Fans who turned out to be so much brighter than Rowling herself. Who never realised that, in the end, Rowling's 'plan' would be so riddled with holes and errors. It's a crying shame, really.

Reading what you've said there ... as an intellectual exercise I applaud what you're doing ... (and your knowledge of the canon continues to astound me) ... and certainly I deplore subjective reasoning which places the desired outcome ahead of the evidence ... but aren't you making exactly the same mistake as all of those other fandom pundits? Only this time around you KNOW that you're putting all this effort, all this brainpower, into something that is fatally flawed! That simply isn't deserving of your industry!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Basically, Ginny's on the good side and she's efficiently violent. I don't think she'd have had a problem with Harry's Crucio any more than she did Sectum Sempra (which to be fair she didn't see in all its bloody glory). Draco's on the bad side believing genocidal ideas, but becomes repulsed by torture and killing by all Death Eaters even when done in the name of the thing he had believed was good.

In the end, Draco's not a hero, he certainly doesn't have any scenes where he's duelling Bellatrix in the name of the good side. But I think it's pretty obvious that Draco isn't supposed to be Peter-lite here. The scene in the Manor gives him a chance for prestige without having to kill the Trio himself and he doesn't want the prestige that way (the way his father is shown to want it). He could get Ron and Herimone knocked off no problem in Malfoy Manor, but now that death is for real he knows he doesn't want either of them dead. As oryx said, he really has learned his lesson--and lost his taste for cruelty and Voldemort's aims.

Ginny's cruelty, if one considers it cruelty, is always considered righteous and it's never tied to blood prejudice. It seems like something we're supposed to admire and I'd assume it's the same as always at the end.

Funny thing about Draco is that he is one of the only characters in canon who is almost distinguished by his ability to learn, even though it only gets him from bully parroting Nazi-ish rhetoric to probably a non-offensive guy (who is at least a better father than his father was). I don't think that reading was intentional in the series; it's almost like a by-product of Draco's cowardice that he's unable to blithely skip along ignoring the consequences of his own actions. Just as I don't think his saving of Goyle is supposed to be a sign of bravery given the way it's written. (Though I do think it's supposed to be a contrast to Crabbe.)

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Basically, Ginny's on the good side and she's efficiently violent.

I think that's a good summary. Hmm. Maybe I'd put it as 'selfishly violent'. I see Ginny as quite casual with her violence when it satisfies her impetuous and selfish desires for personal satisfaction.

But when it comes to the larger picture - where do you stand on the Muggleborn, the issues of society - she's one of the good guys. Even if it's by default, simply because she's a Weasley, because her family and friends are. Because her hero!Harry is.

As oryx said, he really has learned his lesson--and lost his taste for cruelty and Voldemort's aims.

Draco's 'redemption' in the series was something that took a while for me to recognise. I'm still not comfortable with it. I mean, the kid should be prosecuted for the crimes that he DID commit, like letting in those Death Eater terrorists in sixth year. Or aiding and abetting Voldemort - Draco *was* trying to get the diadem for his master, you know, even if he was endeavouring to do so without killing the Trio. Nah, thinking about that last ... I'm still undecided.

(And I'm outraged at Lucius's getting off in the interview canon.)

Ginny's cruelty, if one considers it cruelty, is always considered righteous and it's never tied to blood prejudice. It seems like something we're supposed to admire and I'd assume it's the same as always at the end.

It's a horrible and twisted set of values that Rowling gave us with Ginny but yes, it seems clear that she's the golden girl and we should regard the casual brutality and bullying behaviour as just her being 'feisty' (certainly that's how her fans seem to filter it). With the people receiving her blows and hexes being automatically deemed as being at fault and 'wrong'. They deserved it!

I guess Ginny ended up as an extension of Harry; not only as his love interest, but also in terms of being axiomatically 'good', one of the independent nodes of morality from which all other ethical valuations could be measured?

Funny thing about Draco is that he is one of the only characters in canon who is almost distinguished by his ability to learn, even though it only gets him from bully parroting Nazi-ish rhetoric to probably a non-offensive guy

He should still be locked up!!! Sent to Juvenile court!! Something!!!

[oryx_leucoryx]

Or aiding and abetting Voldemort - Draco *was* trying to get the diadem for his master, you know, even if he was endeavouring to do so without killing the Trio.

But what made him think his master would want the diadem found? He may have had a good reason to think his master didn't want Harry to find it, but since he never heard from his master or any of his henchmen about the diadem or anything like it then perhaps what his master wants is to keep the diadem away - from Harry and anyone else?

He should still be locked up!!! Sent to Juvenile court!! Something!!!

Yes, I agree, something. And Neville should testify for mitigation of his sentence. (OTOH Harry should do some time for that gallant Cruciatus and a few other things.)

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

What makes anyone think he even knew there *was* a Diadem? Draco didn't know anything about the Horcruxes. Take Harry prisoner maybe, that was standing orders to all of the DEs. Capture Potter and deliver him to Tom. Diadem? What Diadem?

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Right, Ginny's on the good side. Draco's on the bad side, and the bad side doesn't really have any shades of grey. There are no good DEs.

But I didn't feel like he'd gotten away with anything, even if he was trying to get the diadem. He was brought up to think being a DE was the best thing you could be and by the time he realized he didn't agree with it he was being personally coerced into things by Voldemort. Even in trying to get the diadem, he didn't know what it was, only that it might be good for his family. I think Voldemort punished him more effectively than prison would. (Especially given how often Harry demonstrates that official punishment makes him feel more justified!)

He was basically doing the same thing as Luna's dad--only in Draco's case he had even less reason to care about the good side rather than his family because he had no ties to the good side at all and had more reason to think they had to protect themselves. His motivation in the end was mostly trying to keep his family and himself alive, but he wouldn't cross the lines Peter would to do it.

Letting the DEs into Hogwarts was no little thing, but given where the whole storyline was about I didn't feel like it was unresolved unless he was put in jail for it. It was by doing that we and he would actually see where he stood. He didn't want to be on the bad side anymore but the good side didn't want him (I'm not blaming them for his situation, of course). I didn't feel like he had any DE left in him in the end, so I didn't mind him being 18 and out of jail and probably teaching his kid better values.

I don't have a defense for why he shouldn't be punished for letting in the DEs or anything. (Course, I also think the twins should be punished for nearly killing a fellow student.) There's no working justice system here. Lucius doesn't get in trouble for his CoS plot and he didn't even have the excuse of being brainwashed throughout his life--nor did he ultimately decide that what he was trying to do was wrong!

[oryx_leucoryx]

Lucius doesn't get in trouble for his CoS plot and he didn't even have the excuse of being brainwashed throughout his life--nor did he ultimately decide that what he was trying to do was wrong!

Well, there wasn't any evidence that could have stuck. Or was there? Surely someone's Pensieved memory of the events at Flourish and Blotts would have shown Lucius putting the diary in Ginny's book? Or was this again Dumbledore trying to keep the information that Voldemort=Riddle confined?

warning for tl;dr

[merrymelody.livejournal.com]

I think the problem with Draco facing consequences for his lawbreaking is, like SisterM puts it, there's no working justice system here.
Even the most basic laws (against Unforgiveables or murder, for example) are broken, by everyone.
There's only one jail where you pretty much get a death penalty or else go insane (lol, which like the laws within the books, sort of alters whenever it needs to.)
And all the governments we've seen in the books are corrupt, either sending innocent people off or letting guilty people go.
Even the schools policies vary wildly - you can get detention for sneaking around at night, but also for the Sectumsempra (which in the real world wouldn't even be a school matter, but a criminal one.) Or you can get away with anything, if a teacher likes you.
We get certain spells, actions or insults that the author tells you are 'dark' and deserving of punishment in some way; but there's no consistent punishment for these, within the story (ie. the Slytherins get away with tons of stuff) or outside of it (ie. JKR doesn't recognise how having your hero obsess over a dark spellbook all year and then moralise about Malfoy's "fascination with the Dark Arts" might come across; or how Ginny or the Twins is just as obnoxious a bully.)

So for Malfoy to face some kind of formal punishment would
a) require some kind of formal punishment system in the WW that for the first time is fairly applied - and who on earth would run that? Even the Order has it's share of corruption (Arthur, Dumbledore getting people like Mundungus Fletcher off because they help him). Kingsley's hands aren't exactly clean, but he's what we get apparently; and
b) require everyone else to be subject to same laws.
So where Malfoy must face consequences, so must Harry (Unforgiveables), the Twins (what they did to Montague), the adults (is there a battle ground justice system? Should Molly go to jail? Is her soul torn? Is there a manslaughter or a self-defence mitigation? Would inaction - Lucius and Narcissa going out of their way not to fight - count? Or would it be negated because of the self-interest?) TBH, this is basic ethics discussion, but it's way beyond what JKR's willing to go into, imho. She wants 'Our side does what they want, their side gets away with it to show how slimy they are/gets righteously punished, hahaha!'
And obviously, while no-one wants a system of 'Good cancels out bad', there is the barest hint of a natural justice system on the author's part - no-one would want to see Harry punished for anything when he just died to save the world.
Presumably everyone fighting for his side would be covered under this - they've all risked their lives fighting for a cause that's preferable to the other side (about as kind as I can put it!), they're essentially soldiers; are they really going to face justice for stuff they did at school prior to that?
But that perspective is exactly one that works when you're the author deciding fates, and which falls apart when you're trying to present a system of justice.
Which imho, is why even JKR, who doesn't seem able to decide whether she wants to punish using "natural" justice - so-and-so has suffered enough/didn't marry/kept their scars (she does love those literal scars! Not only Marietta, Charlie and Harry, but I thought it was interesting in the epilogue - never a sentence I thought I'd type, btw! - that Malfoy's specifically wearing clothes up to the neck. Dunno if it meant because of the Sectumsempra or because of the fire in DH, but it seems an odd reference if it's not referring to hiding some kind of wound.) or whether she wants to have a system (Harry and Hermione ending up in law enforcement - eek! - or her noting that Umbridge, of all people, would have gone to prison.) got a bit squeamish about sending the Malfoys' to prison. The bad stuff they've done in the past is still bad, but if we're ignoring anything up until DH (like we have to for Fred and George, say), then what they've done is pretty light - this is a book, after all, where the epitome of goodness confesses to having planned a kid's death for the last seventeen years.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

No, Draco wasn't evil and didn't approve of all those people dying. He only was like that as a kid before he had a real taste of actual murder. His line about wanting Hermione dead was as serious as Ron saying he hoped Snape was dead (as I think he says in CoS.) After that he didn't want anyone killed--including Hermione or the Trio, who he hated. He doesn't become a hero but he's not cheering on Voldemort and just not wanting to do it himself.

[octopuspatronus.livejournal.com]

You've got skills, I swear. I think last night I wrote out this massive, teal deer inducing reply that was only slightly coherent because it was something like four or five o'clock in the morning-- I glanced at the clock and decided that *not* posting it would probably be better for the brain cells everybody involved.

And here you come with a succinct little paragraph that says pretty much all I was going to say. :)

I think the trouble that a lot of people have with Draco is that they have a hard time getting into his perspective. While our parents (hopefully) were telling us that killing is wrong and that you shouldn't be mean to people who are different than you-- Draco was getting the story about this horrible invading force of Muggleborns who are going to destroy his home and his people, as well as the awareness that his beloved father was once part of a secret organization that "protected" the wizarding world from the invaders and the traitors that would let them in with open arms. That's a really bad place to start, obviously! He absolutely thought that *his* was the right, good side, until he found out that it wasn't.

It's hard for me to equate "EVIL!" with "Timmy, who's dad is in the KKK". And Timmy doesn't even have a mass-murdering megalomaniac pointing a gun at his parents. Okay, brain, who the hell is Timmy. >:\

[sweettalkeress.livejournal.com]

Now I'm starting to wonder if Ginny only ever hooked up with Harry as Rowling's way of declaring to the audience that Harry isn't actually gay!

[merrymelody.livejournal.com]

ROFL, even the movie couldn't resist this one, iirc: you see Draco with his little lantern next to Hagrid, looking for Harry.