Philosopher's Stone Chapter Eight

[urbanman1984.livejournal.com]

                                               

Harry meets Snape for the first time.

The Potions Master

*Ron is anonymous as far as anyone at Hogwarts is concerned.  He is just the kid standing next to Harry Potter.  Generous of Harry to confer that distinction on him.  Ron will come to appreciate it...

 

*Hogwarts, the building sounds like a real nightmare.  JKR over reached herself in the UK edition by stating there were 142 staircases there... leading to where I wonder?  How many classes does Hogwarts offer?  I thought it was only 12.  But then the number of students at Hogwarts is really inconsistent from moment to moment as well... oh dear maths.

 

*The ridiculous moving staircases give an impression of prevailing insanity.  If the place is magical why can’t there be teleporters to class rooms and common rooms?  But the “magic” is arranged to make everything harder.  I really would never have got by at Hogwarts, I still don’t have any sense of direction.

 

*And Harry ought, as a Gryffindor, to appreciate Peeves, Hogwarts' resident hazard.  He should love Fluffy even more.

 

*Filch gives little Harry some trouble... well Harry will eventually get his own back on the old squib by hexing him while his backs turned.  IOIAGDI!!

 

*Harry has worked out that the Weasley twins might just have the best knowledge of the building.  He doesn’t know about the Marauders Map yet of course.  In Order of the Phoenix he still hasn’t worked out that anyone who has the map definitely has a far better knowledge of Hogwarts than Filch does.  He still thinks that Filch has the best knowledge of Hogwarts “second only” to that of the Weasley Twins... Oh dear, maths continuity show a little sense Harry!

 

*We never actually see an astronomy lesson.

 

*JKR probably wasn’t a very apt pupil since history is such a boring subject in her view.  With Professor Binns’ methods it looks like we are getting a feel for how she remembers it - and it went right over her head.

 

*Professor Flitwick is a real Harry Potter fanatic.  Really all designated good characters should swoon with pleasure when they see Harry.

 

*McGonagall threatens to chuck out anyone messing around... there is a lot of talk of chucking people out of classes or out of Hogwarts in the very beginning but *comparatively* much less of it as the series goes on.  I suppose the Hogwarts rule must be that being new is no excuse for not already being used to the haphazard rules which relax once the kids are used to the place. 

 

*Please use the needle to gouge out Hermione’s eye someone...

 

*Zombies are zombies at the moment rather than Inferi.  Once again oh dear maths continuity

 

*The turban cannot possibly be a gift AND stuffed full of garlic :p oh dear maths continuity logic. 

 

*It’s interesting that for Harry’s year, those from magical households don’t have a significant head start.  Didn’t Snape know more curses when he started than half the kids in the seventh year?  I think Sirius would have definitely been right about that.

 

*A message from Hagrid.  Despite his celebrity, Hagrid is the only friend Harry has apart from Ron... sad really.  Where would Harry be with no glamour?

 

*The dungeons are colder than the main castle.  The Slytherin complex must be really uncomfortable unless the Malfoys, Lestranges etc. have paid for extra magical heating...

 

*Hagrid has warmth?  Ermm... get to know him better before jumping to conclusions Harry.

 

*I quite liked Snape’s little speech about Potions being both a science and an art - until the exposition is ruined by the bathos of the word “dunderheads.”

 

*Hermione’s suffering from the jerks.  Must be a grim spectacle.

 

*Harry did open a book before coming Snape!  And it’ll be the last time he ever does...

 

*Does Seamus want to be Harry’s friend here?  I suppose Harry’s insularity put the rest of the year group off him quite quickly, but it hasn’t had full effect yet.

 

*A potion for curing ordinary (not Hermione disease) boils indicates that Hogwarts follows a “sabretooth curriculum.”

 

*It is difficult to fathom Snape’s relationship to Malfoy now the series is over...

 

*Silly Neville :p  When I was 11 my chemistry teacher would probably have said sarcastically, “well you’ve been successful haven’t you?”

 

*Snape is the only teacher who has ever, as far as we see, deducted points in denominations of one point... but speculations on this are pointless given JKR’s level of numeracy.

 

*I recall another member of DTCL posted that Professor Kettleburn might be like the Hagrid X-Treme.  I wonder if Ron would have wanted to visit Kettleburn in his leaf pile ;)

 

*Fang is a big dog with the personality of a puppy.  Hagrid is a monstrous man who often exhibits the mind of a little boy.  That’s how they’re similar.  Also Hagrid is like Dumblesnore’s dog.

 

*Hagrid has a real contempt for Filch and all squibs.  I suspect this must be Dumbledore’s opinion of squibs and Hagrid is parroting it.  We all know what a hypocrite Dumbledore really is.  Hagrid does view Dumbledore as a mixture of an all powerful adoptive grandfather and dog owner.  He would be unlikely to blurt out views that Dumbledore did not approve of.

 

*Hagrid liked Charlie a lot.  I wonder how much trouble he was able to get Charlie into?

 

*So the Prophet reckons it would take a dark wizard or dark witch to get into Gringotts?  Doesn’t seem likely.  Really, a little kid could have broken into the emptied vault.  Griphook later tells us that it had minimal protection even by Gringotts standards, after it was emptied.

 

*Harry has three thoughts from visiting Hagrid (and none from his lessons).  Well the rule of three is always advised by professionals who tell you how to make a presentation :) Perhaps only being able to deal with three thoughts at once is really a common syndrome and not something that is an indictment against Harry.

Comments

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

When you really think about (which okay, is never the point!), it's kind of illogical that Filch would be the janitor, or that there'd be this understanding that that's the Squib type job. Cleaning a castle is exactly the thing you'd use magic for (and in fact there's an army of invisible slaves already doing it better than Filch ever could), where as a Squib might be brilliant at plenty of other things.

It's one of those places where the metaphor or satire kind of falls down. Filch being a Squib maps onto the stereotype of the jealous janitor who's got the kind of job the kids at the boarding school are being trained to soar right by, but a lack of magic shouldn't really equate to a lack of education. It does in this universe because all the kids actually learn is magic, but it's not a direct logical thing where lack of education should lead to a menial job, because the education in this universe makes you more qualified for the menial jobs.

It’s interesting that for Harry’s year, those from magical households don’t have a significant head start. Didn’t Snape know more curses when he started than half the kids in the seventh year? I think Sirius would have definitely been right about that.

I remember having discussions about the whole Muggleborn prejudice thing and people tried to create a logical situation where Muggleborns were discriminated against because they were behind when it came to magic. But canon completely dismisses that difference by saying flat out that the Muggleborns aren't at all disadvantaged and by having a hero who is Muggle raised.

[oryx_leucoryx]

but it's not a direct logical thing where lack of education should lead to a menial job, because the education in this universe makes you more qualified for the menial jobs.

Excellent observation!

I remember having discussions about the whole Muggleborn prejudice thing and people tried to create a logical situation where Muggleborns were discriminated against because they were behind when it came to magic. But canon completely dismisses that difference by saying flat out that the Muggleborns aren't at all disadvantaged and by having a hero who is Muggle raised.

As well as an arch-villain who was Muggle-raised and the most advanced in his training before school. Plus Lily-Sue.

Muggle-raised kids lack cultural knowledge of the Wizarding World - they don't know the Tales of Beedle the Bard, or what the history of conflicts between wizards and goblins was, or which uses of magic are considered appropriate and which aren't. This may disadvantage them outside the classroom for a while but not inside it. OTOH they are more free than wizard-raised kids to explore their innate magic once they discover it.

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

I have a theory that anti-Muggleborn prejudice exists in the wizarding world BECAUSE the great majority - if not all - of the Dark Lords (and ladies) were Muggleborn - precisely because they were given no guidance or discipline in the use of their magic, were told they were crazy or made to fear their own inborn abilities, and so on. The wonder is that Harry did not become a Dark Lord - oh, wait. Maybe he did! (Dum, dum, dum, dum ...)

[oryx_leucoryx]

OTOH how come no wizarding-raised child ever tried to pull a Fred and trick Hermione or Harry into making an Unbreakable Vow to hir?

[the-bitter-word.livejournal.com]

Yes, it makes no sense that a Squib who can't do magic would be in a position to monitor or even harm, much less clean up after, students who can do magic. It's actually a very cruel position to put someone without magic in, and in a "might makes right" world, would logically lead to the abuse that Filch suffers at the hands of Potter, our hero. I'm surprised we didn't see more scenes of Filch-baiting.

And yet, in a society where magical power means so much, it also makes sense that those who don't have magical power, and who can't or won't leave the society, will fall out at the bottom. Janitorial work, for better or worse, is usually thought of as a lowly thing to do in the Muggle world.

It's a strange dynamic that feels class-based to me. Hagrid, without a wand and without completing his so-called education, keeps the grounds until he is promoted to professor, where he's totally out of his depth. Shunpike boasts of being a Death Eater under the influence of Veelas, then we see him in the thick of a Death Eater attack, only witless, at least according to Potter. Fletcher wants to be an Order member, but he is a hapless dupe, and is at some point throttled by Potter. The Gaunts are debased hillbillies whose illusions of supremacy doom them. Filch seems to want the power to enforce rules and keep order, and when he gets an ally in Umbridge, things spiral out of his control. Are there any truly lower or working class figures who make good in the HP books, who the author doesn't punish for being jump-ups? I don't think Snape is the answer to this question. The message seems to be know your deserved place and stay in it.

I'm not familiar with the jealous janitor theme except for The Simpsons, and Groundskeeper Willie isn't jealous so much as dismissive of students' delusions about their futures. I didn't see Filch as jealous of students' abilities so much as wistful, hoping to somehow learn magic for his own amazement and use. However, now that I think about it, Filch's desire to punish students might have come from jealousy (I thought it was just something he liked to do).

The baffling thing is Snape's reliance on Filch to help with bandaging in PS, and then Snape's suppressed smile at Filch's distress when Mrs. Norris is petrified in COS. I'm not sure what the picture is supposed to be when both scenes are taken together. But that's way off on a tangent, as usual.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Jealous janitor is probably the wrong thing to call it...it's more the idea of the bitter janitor who hates having to pick up after kids because the kids don't treat him with respect. There always seems to be an undercurrent of the kids assuming they're never going to have a bad job like being a janitor, even if some of them will.

But it does totally make sense that a Squib would fall to the bottom and never be able to be a success--though I could imagine in this world that there could be a famous wizard who was really a Squib who was passing. But it's funny that I think more than once we're told that the kids for detentions have to do menial jobs without magic, with the lack of magic being the main point of the humiliation and tedious punishment.

[the-bitter-word.livejournal.com]

It may be that Squibs who get out of the magical world are successes, even if wizards see them as failures. Well, wizards would see them as failures regardless. However, I'm thinking of Ron's cousin (?) who became an accountant or something equally shameful to the Weasleys, something that wouldn't actually be so bad in Muggle society.

And, upon reflection, fatalism trumps ambition in the HP books regardless of social class.

[oryx_leucoryx]

And the nail that sticks out must be hammered down. Don't try to rise above your station, even if you are Severus Snape.

Somehow Dean the West Ham fan isn't stigmatized as an upstart.

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

I've looked it up, and it's his mum's second cousin. Apparently, they never talk about him. I can't help but feel that if Draco were saying something like this, it'd be treated as evidence that he is OMG TEH BIGOT!!1! Still, IOIAGDI, I supposed.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Of course in some interview or other Rowling had to whitewash the Weasleys by saying said relative did something insulting to deserve this treatment.

JKR and whitewashing

[urbanman1984.livejournal.com]

JKR is such a coward when it comes to actually admitting that her designated heroes and heroines have any real faults at all. However, her ability to whitewash is compromised by the fact that she is obviously, to be euphemistic, morally challenged. Stating that she believes that Marietta Edgecombe really did deserved to be scarred forever makes her come across like those Isalmic fundamentalists who punish women who offend them by splashing acid in their faces.

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

Given the Weasleys, it's quite likely the insult was deserved, though.

[sunnyskywalker]

My first thought would be to assume that Dumbledore gave Filch the job for some purpose other than actually wanting a Squib janitor, because that's the sort of thing he does. But we can figure out why he stationed Arabella Fig on Privet Drive, got the oh-so-loyal Hagrid on the gameskeeper track, etc., and I can't see any other purpose Filch is fulfilling, unless it's teaching the kids how to disrespect non-magical people. (Although I'm sure someone could find a way to make his records of decades' of students' misdeeds extremely useful.) So... maybe he asked Filch to do something for him, Filch refused, and Dumbledore arranged that he'd have no option but to work at Hogwarts as punishment - er, I mean, a constant friendly reminder of why it is right to help Dumbledore, that's it - until he reconsiders? Or maybe he's the Order's super-secret backup interrogator.

But really, it just doesn't make sense.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Mrs Figg must have gotten into trouble over all those cats at some point. (How many are people allowed to keep in a British residential home without it becoming a health or zoning issue?)

How do the Muggle-repelling charms affect Filch's disposition? Does he constantly feel he needs to go somewhere else and has to remind himself he has nowhere to go to?

And Twinkly managed to ensnare the Weasleys - by having Harry rescue their kids with little to no effort of Twinkly's own.

Firenze - the centaur that was kicked out of his herd.

Stokholm Syndrome all over the place in this series.

[oryx_leucoryx]

On Severus' knowledge of curses - I found whitehound's analysis. It is in But Snape is just nasty, right?. The relevant part is:

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Sirius says that "Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year". This is a profoundly traumatized man in his mid thirties, trying to remember an impression gained when he was eleven about somebody he is deeply prejudiced against. Nevertheless, let's assume it's true and see what it tells us.

The logical corollary is that Snape knew fewer curses than half the seventh years, or the same number. So Snape is being accused of precocity rather than monstrousness. And we know he was precocious, because he invented Levicorpus in the margin of a sixth-form text-book, and yet Remus tells us that Levicorpus enjoyed a vogue at Hogwarts for some months during their fifth year. Ergo, Snape was using a sixth year text as a note-book quite early in fifth year.

[We can assume Advanced Potion-Making was a NEWT text when Snape was at school, because even Umbridge admits that the fifth-year Potions class he later teaches is quite far ahead for their age, yet when they start Advanced Potion-Making in sixth year the recipes in it are new to them. Ergo, Advanced Potion-Making really is quite advanced.]

Knowing a lot of curses does suggest a penchant for combat spells, but several curses are either on the Hogwarts curriculum or readily available in the library. When Draco uses Locomotor mortis on Neville in first year he announces that he's been looking for somebody to practice it on and the Trio all recognise it at once, which suggests that they've been taught it, or at least taught about it, in class. Hermione already knows Petrificus totalus in first year, which she presumably got from a book, and in fourth year they learn Reductor from a book with McGonagall's blessing, and are taught about the Unforgivables. A student it seems may know several curses and yet not know anything which the school deems unacceptable. And how many curses is more curses than are known to half the new seventh years?

At the end of sixth year, Harry - who is such a Defence Against the Dark Arts expert that he's competent to teach it - knows Reductor, Locomotor mortis, Petrificus totalus and Furnunculus. He knows of the three Unforgivables but can't yet cast them effectively. And he knows Sectumsempra, which is also considered a curse.

[Harry also knows Impedimenta, but only once, in the US edition of GoF, is it called the Impediment Curse, and this seems to be an error. Everywhere else - including the same place in the UK edition - it's called the Impediment Jinx.]

So that's five curses he can perform, and three he knows of but can't really perform, most of them sanctioned by the school, for an Outstanding DADA student at the transition-point between sixth and seventh years. On this evidence, "knows more curses than half the seventh years" probably means "knows six curses". Indeed, we can assume fairly confidently that Severus didn't know any more than six or seven curses, because if even the most Outstanding DADA student starts seventh year knowing only eight curses, three of which he can't yet do, that means that if Severus had known more than six or seven he would have known more than almost all the seventh years, not just half of them, and Sirius would have said so.

Nor, of course, do we know whether he used those curses offensively, defensively or in a duelling club.
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