OOTP Chapter Twelve: "Professor Umbridge"

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

* “Does he think he’ll turn into a nutter if he stays in a room with me too long?” Given that you threatened to curse him yesterday, he probably thinks you’ve already turned into one.

* So having favoured Harry over Seamus, Ron’s now reluctant to keep his brothers in line. A prefect should really be more impartial.

* Nice to see Harry and Ron dismissing the prospect of uniting with the Slytherins out of hand like that. And to think that some people say Slytherins aren’t treated like proper members of the school!

* So Angelina’s only holding try-outs for Wood’s replacement, whereas Harry will make everybody try-out next year. Is this something that varies depending on who’s captain, or did JKR just make up the “everyone tries out” idea to add some Ron-related angst in Book 6?

* Note how Ron’s already decided that he won’t like Umbridge before having one lesson with her. As it is he’ll be proved right, but still, it’s not like they’re giving her much of a chance, is it?

* “‘Leave me out of it,’ said Ron hastily.” Nice to see him undermining the authority of his fellow-prefect like that, isn’t it?

* As if the prospect of taking exams which determine whether or not you stay at school isn’t stress enough, Fred and George go and give people boils. Charming.

* As an aside, how does the exam system in Hogwarts work? In some ways it seems like GCSEs/O-levels, but if this were the case we’d expect quite a few people to leave school after taking them and take up jobs, rather than study to NEWT level. Or is it more a case of them being necessary to progress to NEWT level, but otherwise not really affecting your final qualifications, a bit like some university exams?

* Poor Ron, wanting to be an Auror. He’s spent his entire school career being overshadowed by Harry, and now he’ll spend his entire professional career being overshadowed, too. What he really needs is some time working/travelling without Harry or Hermione, so that he can become more confident and discover that he can actually cope without them. I doubt JKR would give him that, though.

* Besides, Aurors are, like, the élite. You can’t be one of them unless you’re really good. Or unless you’re the Chosen One, in which case you are entitled to take up whatever job you want. And get your friends into the Aurors, too.

* Ugh, Hermione’s so easy to manipulate. “Oh, you’re so clever, please lend us your notes.” She really ought to stop helping them, or at least scale back her help to a level where she’s not practically doing their work for them.

* Although I am rather attracted to the idea that she’s subconsciously trying to make herself indispensible to the boys due to her deep-seated insecurity. Especially given what happened to her when she last seriously stood up to them, over the broom in POA.

* So Harry meets Cho, makes a complete faux pas and reminds her of her dead boyfriend. Ron quickly steers the conversation away onto something more happy, i.e., Quidditch, before Cho can get too upset. Nevertheless, Ron is apparently the insensitive jerk around here, not Harry.

* And Ron and Hermione keep bickering about it all the way to Potions class. I’ve heard of couples getting into friendly arguments, but really, this is just ridiculous.

* Snape has apparently come to expect a high pass level from his students, suggesting that he’s actually quite a good teacher, after all.

* No matter how “worthless” Harry’s potion is, Ron’s has to be even worse.

* For Divination, they work from The Dream Oracle, by Inigo Imago. Which makes me wonder: where do people get the time to research all this complicated magic stuff and write up books about it? Apart from teaching positions in Hogwarts, there don’t really seem to be any academic jobs in the WW, and there aren’t enough wizards to make writing books a viable way of making a living (which perhaps explains the lack of wizarding fiction – there just isn’t a big enough audience for such works to be profitable). But surely a regular day job wouldn’t leave much time for research, so perhaps there’s some form of Ministry grant to allow people to take time off work and research these topics, or the people who do so are all wealthy enough that they can afford not to work full-time.

* Keeping a dream diary doesn’t seem as onerous as Harry and Ron seem to make out. After all, it’s not like most people have many dreams, and I’d be surprised if they’d end up remembering more than one or two over that whole period.

* Professor Umbridge’s wand is “unusually short”. Freudian, anyone?

* Knowing the WW, those kids really need a Defence class involving some considerations of the ethics involved. Like Umbridge’s. Still, no wonder they don’t take to it. Ethics? Pah! What sort of cowardly thing is this?

* Picking a fight with a teacher like this seems a bit OOC for someone like Hermione. Maybe the real Hermione Granger’s been drugged and locked in a magical trunk with the real Ginny Weasley, and has now been taken over as JKR’s sock-puppet.

* At least Dean acknowledged that Moody “turned out to be a maniac”, but doesn’t seem to dwell on it too much because “we still learned loads”. Which seems… somewhat worrying, TBH. Sort of like a Muggle saying “Yes, well, I know Myra Hindley turned out to be a mass-murderer, but she taught me loads of great childcare tips.”

* So Professor Umbridge states that Voldemort’s return is a lie, which seems to be the Ministry line. But never does anybody suggest that Harry killed Cedric himself, despite him having the means, motive and opportunity, and despite the fact that Cedric’s body doesn’t seem to bear animal attack marks on it. Perhaps it’d just be too difficult for Harry to rebut, and hence would get in the way of JKR’s planned storyline.

* “Well, I’m glad you listen to Hermione Granger, at any rate,” says Professor McGonagall, somewhat ironically, given that Hermione’s the one who started the trouble.

 

Comments

[oryx_leucoryx]

Does that mean that I'm not a good fan because Snape is my favorite?

I'm worse because I like reading SSHG!

SSHG

[urbanman1984.livejournal.com]

OK how do you do that and keep down your lunch? Are you really suggesting you could bear to see Hermione naked?

Re: SSHG

[oryx_leucoryx]

Since Hermione (and all other characters) are made of words, in my imagination they look any way I want them to. They can look differently in each story.

Re: SSHG

[urbanman1984.livejournal.com]

Snape was the only teacher at Hogwarts who ever put Hermione down like she really deserved, he gets that much credit. I should think he would know better than to ever have anything resembling romantic or lascivious thoughts towards her no matter what happened.

Re: SSHG

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

Hermione reads books and regurgitates what she's read, but she never demonstrates real intelligence, certainly never comes close to Snape's brilliance.

The idea of a teacher having relations with a student or even an ex-student is creepy, and even if that student is "of age", I just don't see Snape doing it, and especially not with someone who is not only not his intellectual equal, but is actually quite beneath him.

Re: SSHG

[urbanman1984.livejournal.com]

My thoughts exactly. Snape could think outside the box, so to speak. That is evidenced by his intuitive grasp of potion brewing that enabled him to rewrite the text book recipes so they worked better.

Snape would have to be completely out of character to have anything like a relationship with any one of his pupils or ex-pupils, let alone one who is as amoral and unintelligent as Hermione is.

Re: SSHG

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

This is an excellent point. I remember someone in this group once saying that Hermione is what a not very smart person thinks smart people are like, and the more I thought about it, the more it seemed true. It actually reminds me of something I learned in my instructional services class (teaching for librarians, pretty much)- being able to parrot back things that you have read or learned is actually really low on the learning scale. The higher forms of thinking involve interpreting them and being able to apply them to a variety of situations.

Re: SSHG

[oryx_leucoryx]

Why is a relationship with an ex-student creepy? Once the person is no longer under the teacher's authority any relationship between the two is a matter of their respective choices.

(Of course I don't mind reading fanfic, or just plain fiction, about situations that really would be creepy in real life if it does something interesting with the characters. There is a lot of fiction that is creepy one way or the other.)

Re: SSHG

[cured4life.livejournal.com]

Well said. I can't get that pairing at all.

Re: SSHG

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Maybe if she had tried to save his life in the shack and he had lived he might have been more keen on liking her better. But ya know, since she just conjured a flask without doing much else, to me that would sort of put a damper on the relationship he has with any of the trio. Hell, harry and Ron put more effort into trying to save Wormtail than they did Snape. Really all they did with Snape was to take his memories and watch him die. Hell, did Ron even move at all in that scene?

I think Snape if he lived would think about that and I don't doubt that he'd remind them of it at some point:

"Thank you for the help, Miss Granger...I really appreciated your efforts in trying to save my life."

"But, there wasn't much I could have-"

"Done to save my worthless life," he finished the comment for her, his tone darkening.

"That is not what I was going to say," she replied, "I didn't have anything with me that would have helped you and there was no time."

"I am aware I was doomed, but here I am, quite alive," he when on a sneer very evidence on his face.

"Yes, I see that you are alive, though we're not sure how you are alive...but when you were dieing we thought you were with Voldemort, a loyal Death Eater and we didn't think-"

"Clearly thinking about me was not top priority was it," he cut in again, "and I was the evilest of men so I deserved to die horribly."

"No, thats not what I-"

"Not even a mocking attempt to save me." he went on, ignoring that she had even spoken, "Though you did rather well at conjuring a flask to take my memories away. There is no doubt you are quite...ah...effective when you want to be."

"If we could have saved you we would have." she insisted, sounding annoyed.

"Ah yes, such hero's that you three are."

Hermione narrowed her eyes.

"And you were all in hurry obviously, no time to think about saving a mans life, not a man such as myself. But, it was quite enough time to conjure a flash, take my memories and rush away to save the world."

"I did...look back." was the only thing she could think to say.

"Such a moving moment I'm sure...thank you so much for giving my dead body one longing last look."

Re: SSHG

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

That was awesome.

Re: SSHG

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

Maybe if she had tried to save his life in the shack and he had lived he might have been more keen on liking her better.

That's actually the premise of most SS/HG fan fics I've seen...they have Hermione returning to the Shack to rescue Severus, and then most of the stories have her later becoming his apprentice or aiding him in his studies/research in some manner. The Hermione in these stories is usually presented as an "older and wiser" Hermione, who realizes how much she doesn't know and starts really learning from Snape, and so hence the relationship between the two characters deepens.

IOW, these stories do an almost total rewrite of Hermione to the point that she may was well be labled an OFC...

But ya know, since she just conjured a flask without doing much else, to me that would sort of put a damper on the relationship he has with any of the trio.

Well it goes back to the discussion of Hermione re: smart vs. intelligence.

She's smart enough to figure out to conjure a flask in time to capture Snape's memories; OTOH, she does not have the intelligence to think of any other spell/charm/potion that may actually save Snape's life.

"Yes, I see that you are alive, though we're not sure how you are alive...but when you were dieing we thought you were with Voldemort, a loyal Death Eater and we didn't think-"

"Clearly thinking about me was not top priority was it," he cut in again, "and I was the evilest of men so I deserved to die horribly."

And again, Hermione was not intelligent enough to consider that Snape may have had even more useful information than was in the memories he gave them; she had no idea what was in those memories, it could have turned out that Snape only managed to get out some, but not all, of the memories, resulting in a bigger puzzle.

With Snape dead, they'd have no way of knowing what he had been trying to tell them. If they'd kept him alive, they could have questioned him further. But all Hermione could think of was Harry, who was only focused on one thing, and it wasn't Snape.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

I much prefer SSHP. I'm not sure if it's because I prefer slash or if it's because I don't find Hermione to be all that interesting a character.

Harry and Hermione

[urbanman1984.livejournal.com]

It's true that Hermione is uninteresting in the early series and plain repulsive in the later series. But perhaps there is that added dimension of physical attractiveness. JKR does describe Hermione as being unattractive quite relentlessly. For instance, constantly slipping in details like her eyes are "leaking" when she is crying and more significantly, describing her voice as being really grating. It is especially important with female characters when establishing how they come across to describe their voice as well as how they appear. An attractive woman should never "shriek" or even speak in a shrill voice like Hermione does.

I always thought of Harry as being sexy either in drag or in something that suggested casual chic, what do you think?

Re: Harry and Hermione

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

Well, like I said, it could just be that I do generally prefer reading slash, so it's quite possible that my preference for SSHP over SSHG has very little to do with any of my feelings regarding Hermione. I've heard that there are some very well-written SSHG fics out there, so I don't really want to disparage anyone's fanfic preferences.

IMO, neither Harry nor Hermione are particularly attractive individuals by the end of the series. I find them both pretty repulsive in the last 2 or 3 books.

I think my lack of interest in Hermione has more to do with the fact that I just don't feel like there's much to explore with her character. I prefer characters who are more internally conflicted than Hermione is or who have to deal with bigger "issues" than Hermione ever faces, such as coping with the loss of someone or something important, or having to make a difficult decision, or recovering from a difficult childhood, or trying to meet (someone else's) unrealistic expectations, etc. While JKR did give Hermione flaws, she didn't give Hermione much in the way of problems.

Re: Harry and Hermione

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

I think my lack of interest in Hermione has more to do with the fact that I just don't feel like there's much to explore with her character.

Yes, I think thats how I feel to.

Thats part of the reason I like original characters. If they're written well, it's like adding something fresh to the HP world. We've seen Hermione throughout the whole series, and Ron and Harry, etc. It sort of feels to me like they're story can't pull me in anymore, or as in they got boring.

One character we really don't get a feel of till the end is actually Severus. So stories from his perspective I really like.

And I like having other new original stuff to read about inside the HP world. I don't want to read about Harry/Ron/Hermione. I sorta want to see other new stuff, etc. If that makes any sense. Even if my field of reading and interest can be full of Maryandgary Sue - I just like getting a new perspective with new original characters.

Re: Harry and Hermione

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

That makes sense. I do tend to avoid stories that feature OC's, but I've read a few that were very well-written.

Re: Harry and Hermione

[sunnyskywalker]

It's such a shame, because there could have been a lot more going on with her character. Being a highly rational girl suddenly dumped into a bizzarro magical world, cut off from everyone she's ever known, and having to adapt to what is essentially an entirely different culture (in which she is supposedly a despised minority) could have provided all kinds of conflict. Imagine a Hermione who actually missed her parents, and Star Trek, and beverages which are not pumpkin juice or butterbeer, and who eventually realized how ruthless she had become under the influence of wizarding culture and was horrified. A Hermione who eventually stopped looking at the rights of magical beings as a hobby on the side and actually started learning about the issues from the beings themselves and devoting her career to changing the ww - after having a dark night of the soul in which she fought the temptation to become the next dark lord, or at least the next Umbridge. That could have been an awesome character arc.

[oryx_leucoryx]

While I'll read the occasional SSHP the stories often annoy me because they are often written by Harry fans. I never particularly liked Harry - he was just necessary to bring out the stories of the other characters. I think I feel about Harry very much like many feel about Hermione - I don't like him enough to I care to read about fanon-improved versions of him.

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

I sort of get what you mean. I have an odd relationship with Snarry fic. I never liked the *idea* of the pairing particularly (not much of a Harry fan here, and canon!Severus would not be, um, particularly thrilled with the idea either). But a lot of the fic I read starting out in fandom happened to be by people who loved Snarry and could write decently, so I sort of accidentally started reading it when going through their work. And I found that when a fic is of a certain overall quality, and there is enough plot/intrigue/other stuff happening, it was bearable.

Then, working my way through whitehound's recs list, I read perverse-idyll's "The White Road." I honestly don't know what happened to me reading that fic, if it was just *that* brilliantly written or what, but when I finished it I picked myself up off the floor, sat back and said, 'I didn't know Snarry could be BELIEVABLE!' But then I couldn't find any other Snarry fics nearly as good, so it's still sort of not believable to me, but I will read it now and then hoping against hope. (Or maybe it's the perverseness of the fic, and I'm just perverse. After all, the only other Snarry I will reread is "By Sulfur and Salt." Is it the twisted Lily angle that gets me? /stops psychoanalyzing self all over your post, sorry)

All of which is very weird to me, because when I'm in my right mind the only fic about these two together that I like otherwise is the very-AU, and very gen, sort of mentor fic that requires major readjustments of the canonical plot to work. (This I like because then Severus actually has a shot at getting the brat's head put on straight properly.) I still don't *buy* the pairing, I just find myself reading it from time to time for no discernible reason. Lol.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

I'm worse because I like reading SSHG!


Runs away screaming...

okay so I'm more of a Snape needs an original character to get free from the world of HP, but OC's tend to turn people away...but thats what I like. Not marysue but interesting OC's which bring something fresh into the story instead of the same old characters.

I think the Hermione thing is a mix of the influence from the movies and just plain there are so few interesting females in the series. Unless you count characters like someone like Tonks, who I never found all that interesting but I have seen that people put SS with just about anyone so there are stories out there for every taste

For me personally, Hermione and Snape just isn't my thing - I just don't see him being interested in a former student and maybe that's just me placing my own morality onto the characters - something about it just sorta doesn't set well with me. Not that I'm particularly a Hermione fan who needs to save her or whatever, but it just doesn't feel right, no matter how old she's portrayed in the story it just tends to make me uncomfortable.

The Sexism of Snupin and Snack

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

I'm worse because I like reading SSHG!

Runs away screaming...

That's how I feel about Snupin and Snack. I find those pairings not just stupid, but also offensive and sexist. That is, if Severus were a woman who had been bullied and terrorized by Remus and Sirius all through school, nobody would dare to even suggest she should become romantically involved with one of her tormentors, even 20 years later, particularly if Remus was still so irresponsible about controlling his condition. Writing such a "romance" would be seen as misogyny and an endorsement of battering. But because Snape is a man, his pain doesn't deserve acknowledgement. I've read a few Snupin stories, and they either ignore or gloss over the abuse he suffered.

They also require Snape to be both incredibly stupid and completely lacking in self-protectiveness because he's always willing to just go, "Oh, that was a long time ago. It was really bad then, but let's just forget all about it now." WTF? All of that is completely contrary to everything we know about him.

Re: The Sexism of Snupin and Snack

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

I agree, with two minor exceptions regarding what I actually find believable / will read. One is Snupin where Severus is a werewolf, has to learn how to deal with this (which gives him some insight into Remus' situation - most of his dealing win Remus are justified I feel but I think he has little sense of Remus' own difficulties, tho I have less sympathy for Remus), and where Remus genuinely realizes how badly he treated Severus. In that context, given a careful enough development, I could see them both finding a new sense of each other and maybe a relationship. (Also I suppose an AU where they were never in that situation at school to begin with would work, but I'm not interested enough in Remus in such situations to seek out such fic.)

The other is Severus/Sirius hatesex. Which, basically, isn't about a healthy relationship to begin with. Needless to say, Sev gets to be on top there, on the rare occasions I feel up to reading such a fic.

Sometimes I really wonder what was going through my head when I read poa, because after it I was a raving Sirius fan for a couple of years. Thankfully I hadn't discovered lj at that point or I might never have recovered.

Re: The Sexism of Snupin and Snack

[oryx_leucoryx]

What about Severus and Sirius as Harry's co-parents and having to work things out for his sake? I imagine Sirius as the parent Harry wants and Severus as the parent he needs. If somewhere after POA and while Sirius was alive both he and Severus learned that Albus was planning on having Harry commit suicide for the greater good I imagine neither of them would have taken it well. Can they realize they both want the same thing and work together to save Harry from both Albus and Tom?

Re: The Sexism of Snupin and Snack

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Yea, I am to Snapish and strict, I can't see Snape as anything other than strictly liking females. Thats my personal preference, it's not that I'm saying it's not okay for other people, but it's just not for me.

I think Snape at the suggestion of dating any of the male characters like Lupin and Sirius, would probably have to restrain himself from hex someone. Plus depending on how the situations was initiated I think it might be rather embarrising and I don't think he takes to feeling humiliated very well.

Severus might say something like the following: "Do not even suggest it unless you want to end up in a matchbox."