death to capslock

What!? Really, TV Tropes?

I mean, come on! Are we honestly to believe that Hermione is as well-written as heroines like Jane Eyre, Esther Summerson, Maggie Tulliver or Elizabeth friggin' Bennett? (yes, I have a thing for classic lit, how could you tell?) Characters who not only have to live in a society where they have fewer rights than men, but who also don't have any super special magic to help them? Characters like that don't need magic- they are plenty strong and capable without it. I wonder how well Hermione would do in a situation like that.

God damn it, Harry Potter wouldn't bother me so much if everyone didn't insist it was the greatest thing since sliced bread!

I totally concur. I would probably have just grown out of the series if there weren't so many people who keep insisting that it's destined to become a classic in the fantasy genre and that I am not a real fan or writer of fantasy if I dislike it.

Uh, excuse the rant, but this seriously ticks me off.

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aikaterini.livejournal.com

Oh, yes, Jane Eyre and Elizabeth Bennet are awesome (unfortunately I am not acquainted with Esther Summerson and Maggie Tulliver, so I can't say much about them). ^^

I'm not sure what Hermione would do in Jane Eyre's position. However, given her atrocious behavior in HBP, I have a feeling that if she were in Elizabeth Bennet's place, she would try to spite Mr. Darcy by deliberately flirting with Colonel Fitzwilliam and George Wickham in front of him instead of telling him how she felt. She might even flirt with Mr. Collins just to rub it in. I'm sure that something would go down during Mr. Darcy's first proposal. OotP!Hermione might do something horrible to Lydia for 'betraying' the family. I'm not sure what exactly she'd do to Lady Catherine and Caroline Bingley, though.

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Sounds about right. *shudders*

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Oh, sorry! Esther and Maggie are from Bleak House and The Mill on the Floss, respectively.

OotP!Hermione might do something horrible to Lydia for 'betraying' the family.

Perhaps try to get the rest of the family and Mr. Darcy to leave her to her fate as Mr. Collins suggested, essentially condemning a 15 year old girl to a short and cruel life of prostitution and poverty? Seems permanent enough for her.

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urbanman1984.livejournal.com

Hermione would most likely have killed the madwoman in the attic, or perhaps set birds on Rochster on learning of her existence.

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Hermione would most likely have killed the madwoman in the attic

I actually think she would have kept the madwoman imprisoned in the attic, only let out when Rochester needed to be forced to do something.

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urbanman1984.livejournal.com

So do you think Bertha was mad due to being locked in a room for so long, or do you believe Rochester that it was genetic?

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I think it's impossible to say for sure. Rochester isn't a neutral party. Bertha does act mad, but I've known people who were reduced by combinations of violence, isolation, and substance abuse to appalling states. I favor the interpretations that look at clash of cultures, predominance of patriarchal privilege and racism, permanence of marriage, restriction of emotional expression in Victorian England, and, yeah, separation from her former life and family, and, finally, imprisonment.

Not a cheery book, actually.

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terri-testing.livejournal.com

So I take it you're more a fan of

The Wide Sargasso Sea

than of canon Bronte's depiction of Berha?

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I've never read The Wide Sargasso Sea! I should probably do that. I should probably read Jane Eyre again, too, but I don't think I'd like it much now.

For me, the discussion gets to how much author intent matters versus the tantalizing but unknowable expression of the author's subconscious, and how much personal prejudice and training affect the writing and reading of characters and their actions. Brontë wrote a groundbreaking novel, with a heroine who tried to maintain her integrity as much as possible despite the restrictions of the time she lived in. Brontë set this heroine against Bertha, very much the shadow, who may have also tried to express herself against a restrictive society and paid a higher price. For Bertha's madness, we have the unreliable origins story of a not-altogether-honorable or socially-flexible Rochester, and the behavioral evidence that Jane perceived long after the fact of Bertha's imprisonment. What was Brontë's intention in creating these two Rochester love interests, one with more agency than the other? Was it prevailing racism and fear of hysteria or sexual libertarianism that made Brontë create the madwoman in the attic, or did she subconsciously create a situation that invited us to look again at the character and her husband's treatment of her, and perhaps be appalled or sympathetic?

For me, it's a layers of meaning thing. Still, to bring the discussion back to HP, Brontë may not have intended a layered reading, at least not of Bertha. For HP, Rowling has expressed that she doesn't find Snape to be anything but unpleasant and can't understand fans of "bad boys" like Draco and Snape -- yet some of us find Snape to be, if not outright consistently good, at least ambiguously good enough to make him our preferred hero of the series. For some, Snape is a Byronic hero -- as was Rochester. These readings are supported by the books, as some have exhaustively pointed out, but many people, including apparently the author, just don't see them. And again, I would say it's our positions and experiences in life, and to some extent, our personalities, that cause us to read characters in certain ways and hold to those readings. Brontë may have tossed-off the character of madwoman of mixed race without seeing anything more than that in the character. Rowling could probably never be convinced that Snape is an attractive character in any way, but she wrote him and some of us do like him. (BTW, Snape's not Byronic for me, but I know that's a heresy. I see him as more the madwoman in the ~~attic~~ dungeons for a good portion of the series.)

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urbanman1984.livejournal.com

Wide Sargasso Sea is really good if you are into Jane Eyre fanfiction. I wonder how the author got away with publishing something that is fanfiction...? Oh well.

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Jane Eyre had probably been long out of copyright when Wide Sargasso Sea was written. An author can use anything that's in the public domain, and even get the work published.

For works still in copyright, however, U.S. copyright law allows the publication of parodies, as decided in the Pretty Woman/2 Live Crew and the Gone With the Wind/Wind Done Gone (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Suntrust_v._Houghton_Mifflin) cases. I think British law also allows this. I'm not sure about other countries.

From:

sunnyskywalker

In the book on 19th-century women's novels The Madwoman in the Attic, there's some interesting discussion of Bertha. Their original reading, iirc, was that Bertha was the shadow, and they pointed out the interesting fact that Bertha's actions always end up helping Jane in the end. They also noted later readings that hm, the imprisoned woman from a colonial area helps Jane essentially against her will (she didn't set that fire so Rochester and Jane could live happily ever after, I think!), and so essentially Bertha's oppression allows Jane's fight against societal restrictions to succeed - Jane at least benefits by the contrast (she may be a social rebel, but she's still a "real" Englishwoman, unlike Bertha). Very complicated topic!

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It's scary that I can kind of see her doing this.

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Hmm, there's a fic where Severus survives the war and Hermione imprisons him in an attic (because she doesn't trust him to stay 'good' now that his job is done and his promises kept). It ends with an implication that he was going to kill her.

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That is so incredibly creepy...

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What is creepy is how in-character I found that version of Hermione, not that long after DH.

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condwiramurs.livejournal.com

I second marionros' call for a link. Also, have you read Caveat Inimici? It's an excellent portrayal of ruthless Hermione - quite believable in my mind.

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Well, I found it (see my latest response to marionross). Yes, I read Caveat Inimici (left a comment with a nit-pick of the Aramaic). I wonder how many other believable Dark!Hermione fics are out there.

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I have no idea how to find it. I read it on Ashwinder years ago, I can't remember the title nor the name of the author. I will try some more search strategies.

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