Oh, TV Tropes...!

[sweettalkeress.livejournal.com]

Quite honestly, the Harry Potter stuff on that site has gotten to the point where I can't read it because just about everything is fawning over how great and super-special-awesome the series is, oh, and how Snape is an evil douchebag who wanted to get Harry and James killed so he could keep Lily. But this... this makes me want to scream:

"Hermione... [is] one of the smartest and more pro-active females in the whole Harry Potter canon and English literature in general"

WHAT THE FUCK?!?!?!

How could they make such a claim?! Hermione is a better heroine than, say, Tiffany Aching?! How about Eliza Doolittle?! And I'm sure you could come up with other examples.

No, no, in Harry Potter it seems fairly obvious that the most powerful women in the series are antagonists. Sure, Hermione's perfectly independent and capable, but in the last several books it's like she becomes Harry's servant because he's too lazy to do anything himself!

God damn it, Harry Potter wouldn't bother me so much if everyone didn't insist it was the greatest thing since sliced bread!

Comments

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

I share your pain. I have a terrible urge to make a snarky comment about people who have never read anything better-written than the back of a cereal box.... Oh, dear.

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

Hermione certainly is one of the smartest and most pro-active female characters in the Harry Potter series. But as for English literature as a whole, I'd have to disagree. Her actions in books 5-7 pretty much killed any respectability that she may have had up until then. Permanently scarring Marietta? Sending vicious birds at Ron to attack him? Mind-wiping her parents? No, I can think of several female characters in English literature who would never stoop to those sorts of things and who are smart and proactive in their own right.

As for the "Snape is an evil douchebag who wanted to get Harry and James killed so he could keep Lily" statement, yeah, and James mercilessly bullied him so that *he* could get to Lily and keep her. Because he didn't want her best friend to get in the way.

I'm not sure if I agree that the most powerful women in the series are antagonists, however. Bellatrix is formidable to be sure, but she's the only female antagonist whom we get to see in action. We don't get to see Alecto or Narcissa dueling, so it's hard to say whether or not they're magically powerful. Meanwhile, Minerva, Molly, Ginny, and Hermione are all built up to be powerful fighters and they're all on Harry's side.

[sweettalkeress.livejournal.com]

I was actually thinking more along the lines of Umbridge, since she's the only female character in such a high position of power who has any real role (McGonagall is ostensibly very powerful, being second to Dumbledore, but we don't really see her do anything much with that power, and the female Ministry employees are mostly just generic background characters at best). Though Bellatrix is strong too.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Quite honestly, the Harry Potter stuff on that site has gotten to the point where I can't read it because just about everything is fawning over how great and super-special-awesome the series is -

Really? I'd had the impression that TV Tropes was more like the 'Dark Lord Potter' folks, happy and eager to call out Rowling for all of the faults of the series. The opposite of gushing sycophants.

Sure, Hermione's perfectly independent and capable, but in the last several books it's like she becomes Harry's servant because he's too lazy to do anything himself!

Which makes her even more awesome, right? Seriously, Harry's complete dependence on her just makes her more of a key figure in the series. Even if Rowling doesn't want her readers to think beyond the fact that the series is named after Harry.

I certainly believe that Hermione is "one of the smartest and more pro-active females in the whole Harry Potter canon" - beyond a doubt - but I guess I have to agree with you that she doesn't weigh up that well when compared with other literature. The failure of the HP series as a whole drags her down. :-(

Harry Potter wouldn't bother me so much if everyone didn't insist it was the greatest thing since sliced bread!

Ah, just laugh at them. Or give them the top 5 reasons why it isn't and then sit back and be entertained by their responses.

[xerox78.livejournal.com]

Hermione's stans in particular seem to be really out of control on that site. There used to be a large entry about her on the Abuse Is Okay When It Is Female On Male page, particularly her treatment of Ron and how it was presented as being completely right and justified. Someone posted a response saying that people needed to remember how Ron pushed her to attack him, blah, blah, blah fakefeminismcakes. Someone responded to that pointing out that they had just proved the entire point of the page. It was also pointed out how her slapping Draco was changed to punching him in the movies and how most of the fandom considered it a Crowning Moment of Awesome, and JKR changed the slap to a punch in HBP. (Although that might just be a case of her not rereading the earlier books rather than a deliberate retchretcon.) Shortly after that, the entire entry on Hermione was deleted.

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know what you mean. :/

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

I agree. Completely. :)

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

What!? Really, TV Tropes?

I mean, come on! Are we honestly to believe that Hermione is as well-written as heroines like Jane Eyre, Esther Summerson, Maggie Tulliver or Elizabeth friggin' Bennett? (yes, I have a thing for classic lit, how could you tell?) Characters who not only have to live in a society where they have fewer rights than men, but who also don't have any super special magic to help them? Characters like that don't need magic- they are plenty strong and capable without it. I wonder how well Hermione would do in a situation like that.

God damn it, Harry Potter wouldn't bother me so much if everyone didn't insist it was the greatest thing since sliced bread!

I totally concur. I would probably have just grown out of the series if there weren't so many people who keep insisting that it's destined to become a classic in the fantasy genre and that I am not a real fan or writer of fantasy if I dislike it.

Uh, excuse the rant, but this seriously ticks me off.

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

Definitely. What does it say about a series (especially one written by a woman) in which the only women with any real demonstrated power are evil? Nice feminism there, JKR.

[the-bitter-word.livejournal.com]

I wondered if this had to do with a particularly pro-Jo owner of the site, and found this opinion piece (http://tintower.co.uk/2011/04/16/the-failure-and-ridicule-of-tv-tropes/), which says the owner (1) doesn't actually run a wiki but rather maintains tight control of content and (2) wants to have positive posts and removes anything that generates controversy. So... for what it's worth.

I really don't care what others think of the series. To me, it's interesting to see how people form their opinions, what assumptions they base them on and how strongly they maintain them. It's interesting until they get in my face and tell me I'm wrong in a hostile or dismissive manner.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Of course this kind of thing makes me suspicious of what the site has on books and movies I am less familiar with.

Last time I checked most of the Discworld stuff was reasonable, except for one troper who seriously promotes an evil!Carrot interpretation against evidence.

[kahran042]

I have been waiting for someone to have the guts to come out and say this. Thank you, thank you, 2^276709 times thank you, sweettalkeress. Personally, what gets me about them is how they assume that if you think that Draco isn't as horrible as JoRo makes him out to be, you're automatically a mindless fangirl. But, yeah. Glad to see this.

[sweettalkeress.livejournal.com]

The worst is that they say the exact same thing about Snape- when Snape isn't even a villain! It's so weird- if any character receives disproportionate punishment for anything they must have "deserved" it in some way, no matter if we ever even get said character's side of the story to begin with (they pretty much accept as gospel that Snape wanted to get James and Harry killed so he could "keep" Lily- even though the only one who suggests such a thing is Dumbledore, and Snape never really gives his side of the story).

And don't get me started on how if you criticize someone like Hermione or Ginny you're automatically treated as a raving misogynist (see the above quote- unfortunately this holds for ANY female character in ANY media even if the criticism is justified!).

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

I've had no respect for TV tropes in relation to HP since I saw this thing on how Sirius and Snape were similar, using the example of Sirius setting Snape up to die at werewolf!Lupin's hands and Snape...calling Lily 'mudblood'. Because recklessly endangering someone's life (and btw, not caring that your supposed BFF could be imprisoned/executed for killing someone, let alone Lupin's own possible guilt) is the same as using an insult. True, a terrible racist insult, but really? *headdeskwallfloor*

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes, Jane Eyre and Elizabeth Bennet are awesome (unfortunately I am not acquainted with Esther Summerson and Maggie Tulliver, so I can't say much about them). ^^

I'm not sure what Hermione would do in Jane Eyre's position. However, given her atrocious behavior in HBP, I have a feeling that if she were in Elizabeth Bennet's place, she would try to spite Mr. Darcy by deliberately flirting with Colonel Fitzwilliam and George Wickham in front of him instead of telling him how she felt. She might even flirt with Mr. Collins just to rub it in. I'm sure that something would go down during Mr. Darcy's first proposal. OotP!Hermione might do something horrible to Lydia for 'betraying' the family. I'm not sure what exactly she'd do to Lady Catherine and Caroline Bingley, though.

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

/And don't get me started on how if you criticize someone like Hermione or Ginny you're automatically treated as a raving misogynist/

Or if you criticize Lily. I've seen a number of essays that argue that if you point out that Lily was an awful friend to Snape, your dislike of her is rooted in misogyny and you're automatically blaming her for Snape becoming a Death Eater.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I'm not a fan of Snape - I mean, he was a *Death Eater*, and they were murdering terrorists, right? Although I've discussed that topic here before and have had the lack of canon proof of same stated - but yes, that comparison on its own is pretty silly.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

... calling someone something 'racist' is BAD, right?

That's how it works in the real world. If the race card label can be slapped against someone then nothing else much matters, all other conversation ceases. :-(

If only he had called Lily 'gold-digging, backstabbing cow' or 'middle-class-wannabe cunt'... He would be totally justified in calling her that --

Woah.

Okay, I know some folk here are pro-Snape, and I've enjoyed being acquainted with the canon evidence that favours him (which I didn't consider that much before) ... but do you seriously think LILY POTTER was all that? I mean, her middle name was 'saint', wasn't it?

My (default) position - we see very little of Lily in the series. One of the biggest flaws and laughing matters (when you include the interview material) is how Lily's 'sacrifice' was somehow of more merit than James defending his family with his life. Offensive, almost, what Rowling said to try and support it. That interview is one of the biggest jokes in all of her out-of-text gaffes, it's hilarious. When I think 'Lily' I typically stop right there at one of the biggest canon problems.

Lily and Snape were good friends, but he *did* call her that bad word, which was pretty stupid/ugly on his part. And she didn't approve of the company he was keeping ... which was fair enough, they were junior death eaters, we KNOW they were bad guys.

James was an arse/bully through most of Hogwarts but we're told he cleaned up his act near the end, congruent with his courting Lily. Hmm. I've seen something here about the canon timing, how James did something bad even after he hooked up with Lily? Can't remember it now.

Anyway, I'm surprised at your vehemence. Assuming there's canon material supporting it - like I've seen proffered here for the pro-Snape stance - can you point me at it? If there's a compilation/essay handy.

But there's so little actually written about Lily - practically nothing until DH - I can't see how she can be made out to be all that bad.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Hey, most of the 'Hermione is a sociopath' folk on the other blog post have backed off on that assertion (okay, 2-3 of them, including the author of the entry) so I figure I'm fighting the good fight on her behalf and making progress. :-) Hermione cut some corners to get things done but one has to turn a blind eye to a LOT of her canon traits to get within a whiff of 'psychopath'!!

A single instance of name-calling during extreme duress is NOT the most damning thing one can do.

Maybe I wasn't very clear in my earlier comment. I agree with you on this.

Let's just say that he only worthwhile thing that little narcissistic bint ever did was dying for her child.

That was basically her sole job in the books after all. A pity it was done so badly, with Rowling's wave-the-hands-please-look-away-OH-WOW-OLD-MAGIC-PROTECTION deus ex machina.

A bit like Snape, dying in order to protect a child who hates him.

True. But don't forget that the child hated him ... because of the way Snape treated him. Something of a circle there.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

Hey, most of the 'Hermione is a sociopath' folk on the other blog post have backed off on that assertion (okay, 2-3 of them, including the author of the entry) so I figure I'm fighting the good fight on her behalf and making progress. :-)

Er...

For what it's worth, I am simply not invested in whether she's a sociopath or not. I clarified my position because other people were, and I deliberately chose not to clarify my position *earlier* because you took a similar statement from someone else as a concession. As you're kind of doing here. Permit me to state: Boo.

I've seen enough evidence to think she has serious empathy issues. Exactly how far they go, I'm not sure. I'm still considering the evidence there. You aren't seriously considering the evidence, though, from what I can see, and that's kind of frustrating.

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

Wow, good points here. It is pretty frustrating that Snape is demonized in the text for merely being a strict, if snarky teacher. I mean, if that's all it takes, then I am pretty sure quite a few of my former teachers are totally depraved, heartless individuals who are still out to get their former students years after the fact.

One wonders how Harry was treated in the muggle school system to have developed such bizarre ideas about his teachers' unfairness in actually requiring him to be well-behaved and prepared.

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

Oh, sorry! Esther and Maggie are from Bleak House and The Mill on the Floss, respectively.

OotP!Hermione might do something horrible to Lydia for 'betraying' the family.

Perhaps try to get the rest of the family and Mr. Darcy to leave her to her fate as Mr. Collins suggested, essentially condemning a 15 year old girl to a short and cruel life of prostitution and poverty? Seems permanent enough for her.

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

Sounds about right. *shudders*

[oryx_leucoryx]

My position on Hermione is that she engages in enough behaviors worthy of a sociopath that whether or not she is in fact a certifiable one doesn't matter. If I knew that anyone I interact with IRL did anything on that level I'd stay away from such a person because it is impossible to know when one might find oneself on the receiving end of her self-righteous vindictiveness.

As for Harry, if he ever paid attention he'd realize his behavior earned him Severus' ire. That other teachers let him get away with stuff they shouldn't have doesn't mean Severus owed him that.

[sweettalkeress.livejournal.com]

The Muggle school system probably treated him roughly the same way as Snape (this assuming he even went to school). Harry thinks that if he's in the Muggle world, he's guaranteed to get treated very badly, and so he expects the Wizarding World to be different and gets angry if it's not.