Oh, TV Tropes...!

[sweettalkeress.livejournal.com]

Quite honestly, the Harry Potter stuff on that site has gotten to the point where I can't read it because just about everything is fawning over how great and super-special-awesome the series is, oh, and how Snape is an evil douchebag who wanted to get Harry and James killed so he could keep Lily. But this... this makes me want to scream:

"Hermione... [is] one of the smartest and more pro-active females in the whole Harry Potter canon and English literature in general"

WHAT THE FUCK?!?!?!

How could they make such a claim?! Hermione is a better heroine than, say, Tiffany Aching?! How about Eliza Doolittle?! And I'm sure you could come up with other examples.

No, no, in Harry Potter it seems fairly obvious that the most powerful women in the series are antagonists. Sure, Hermione's perfectly independent and capable, but in the last several books it's like she becomes Harry's servant because he's too lazy to do anything himself!

God damn it, Harry Potter wouldn't bother me so much if everyone didn't insist it was the greatest thing since sliced bread!

Comments

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

I share your pain. I have a terrible urge to make a snarky comment about people who have never read anything better-written than the back of a cereal box.... Oh, dear.

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

Hermione certainly is one of the smartest and most pro-active female characters in the Harry Potter series. But as for English literature as a whole, I'd have to disagree. Her actions in books 5-7 pretty much killed any respectability that she may have had up until then. Permanently scarring Marietta? Sending vicious birds at Ron to attack him? Mind-wiping her parents? No, I can think of several female characters in English literature who would never stoop to those sorts of things and who are smart and proactive in their own right.

As for the "Snape is an evil douchebag who wanted to get Harry and James killed so he could keep Lily" statement, yeah, and James mercilessly bullied him so that *he* could get to Lily and keep her. Because he didn't want her best friend to get in the way.

I'm not sure if I agree that the most powerful women in the series are antagonists, however. Bellatrix is formidable to be sure, but she's the only female antagonist whom we get to see in action. We don't get to see Alecto or Narcissa dueling, so it's hard to say whether or not they're magically powerful. Meanwhile, Minerva, Molly, Ginny, and Hermione are all built up to be powerful fighters and they're all on Harry's side.

[sweettalkeress.livejournal.com]

I was actually thinking more along the lines of Umbridge, since she's the only female character in such a high position of power who has any real role (McGonagall is ostensibly very powerful, being second to Dumbledore, but we don't really see her do anything much with that power, and the female Ministry employees are mostly just generic background characters at best). Though Bellatrix is strong too.

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

Definitely. What does it say about a series (especially one written by a woman) in which the only women with any real demonstrated power are evil? Nice feminism there, JKR.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Quite honestly, the Harry Potter stuff on that site has gotten to the point where I can't read it because just about everything is fawning over how great and super-special-awesome the series is -

Really? I'd had the impression that TV Tropes was more like the 'Dark Lord Potter' folks, happy and eager to call out Rowling for all of the faults of the series. The opposite of gushing sycophants.

Sure, Hermione's perfectly independent and capable, but in the last several books it's like she becomes Harry's servant because he's too lazy to do anything himself!

Which makes her even more awesome, right? Seriously, Harry's complete dependence on her just makes her more of a key figure in the series. Even if Rowling doesn't want her readers to think beyond the fact that the series is named after Harry.

I certainly believe that Hermione is "one of the smartest and more pro-active females in the whole Harry Potter canon" - beyond a doubt - but I guess I have to agree with you that she doesn't weigh up that well when compared with other literature. The failure of the HP series as a whole drags her down. :-(

Harry Potter wouldn't bother me so much if everyone didn't insist it was the greatest thing since sliced bread!

Ah, just laugh at them. Or give them the top 5 reasons why it isn't and then sit back and be entertained by their responses.

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

I agree. Completely. :)

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

I've had no respect for TV tropes in relation to HP since I saw this thing on how Sirius and Snape were similar, using the example of Sirius setting Snape up to die at werewolf!Lupin's hands and Snape...calling Lily 'mudblood'. Because recklessly endangering someone's life (and btw, not caring that your supposed BFF could be imprisoned/executed for killing someone, let alone Lupin's own possible guilt) is the same as using an insult. True, a terrible racist insult, but really? *headdeskwallfloor*

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I'm not a fan of Snape - I mean, he was a *Death Eater*, and they were murdering terrorists, right? Although I've discussed that topic here before and have had the lack of canon proof of same stated - but yes, that comparison on its own is pretty silly.

[xerox78.livejournal.com]

Hermione's stans in particular seem to be really out of control on that site. There used to be a large entry about her on the Abuse Is Okay When It Is Female On Male page, particularly her treatment of Ron and how it was presented as being completely right and justified. Someone posted a response saying that people needed to remember how Ron pushed her to attack him, blah, blah, blah fakefeminismcakes. Someone responded to that pointing out that they had just proved the entire point of the page. It was also pointed out how her slapping Draco was changed to punching him in the movies and how most of the fandom considered it a Crowning Moment of Awesome, and JKR changed the slap to a punch in HBP. (Although that might just be a case of her not rereading the earlier books rather than a deliberate retchretcon.) Shortly after that, the entire entry on Hermione was deleted.

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know what you mean. :/

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

What!? Really, TV Tropes?

I mean, come on! Are we honestly to believe that Hermione is as well-written as heroines like Jane Eyre, Esther Summerson, Maggie Tulliver or Elizabeth friggin' Bennett? (yes, I have a thing for classic lit, how could you tell?) Characters who not only have to live in a society where they have fewer rights than men, but who also don't have any super special magic to help them? Characters like that don't need magic- they are plenty strong and capable without it. I wonder how well Hermione would do in a situation like that.

God damn it, Harry Potter wouldn't bother me so much if everyone didn't insist it was the greatest thing since sliced bread!

I totally concur. I would probably have just grown out of the series if there weren't so many people who keep insisting that it's destined to become a classic in the fantasy genre and that I am not a real fan or writer of fantasy if I dislike it.

Uh, excuse the rant, but this seriously ticks me off.

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes, Jane Eyre and Elizabeth Bennet are awesome (unfortunately I am not acquainted with Esther Summerson and Maggie Tulliver, so I can't say much about them). ^^

I'm not sure what Hermione would do in Jane Eyre's position. However, given her atrocious behavior in HBP, I have a feeling that if she were in Elizabeth Bennet's place, she would try to spite Mr. Darcy by deliberately flirting with Colonel Fitzwilliam and George Wickham in front of him instead of telling him how she felt. She might even flirt with Mr. Collins just to rub it in. I'm sure that something would go down during Mr. Darcy's first proposal. OotP!Hermione might do something horrible to Lydia for 'betraying' the family. I'm not sure what exactly she'd do to Lady Catherine and Caroline Bingley, though.

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

Oh, sorry! Esther and Maggie are from Bleak House and The Mill on the Floss, respectively.

OotP!Hermione might do something horrible to Lydia for 'betraying' the family.

Perhaps try to get the rest of the family and Mr. Darcy to leave her to her fate as Mr. Collins suggested, essentially condemning a 15 year old girl to a short and cruel life of prostitution and poverty? Seems permanent enough for her.

[the-bitter-word.livejournal.com]

I wondered if this had to do with a particularly pro-Jo owner of the site, and found this opinion piece (http://tintower.co.uk/2011/04/16/the-failure-and-ridicule-of-tv-tropes/), which says the owner (1) doesn't actually run a wiki but rather maintains tight control of content and (2) wants to have positive posts and removes anything that generates controversy. So... for what it's worth.

I really don't care what others think of the series. To me, it's interesting to see how people form their opinions, what assumptions they base them on and how strongly they maintain them. It's interesting until they get in my face and tell me I'm wrong in a hostile or dismissive manner.

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

it's interesting to see how people form their opinions, what assumptions they base them on and how strongly they maintain them. It's interesting until they get in my face and tell me I'm wrong in a hostile or dismissive manner.

I would think that the psychological aspects here would be absolutely fascinating. Somebody really ought to do a study on it.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Of course this kind of thing makes me suspicious of what the site has on books and movies I am less familiar with.

Last time I checked most of the Discworld stuff was reasonable, except for one troper who seriously promotes an evil!Carrot interpretation against evidence.

[kahran042]

I have been waiting for someone to have the guts to come out and say this. Thank you, thank you, 2^276709 times thank you, sweettalkeress. Personally, what gets me about them is how they assume that if you think that Draco isn't as horrible as JoRo makes him out to be, you're automatically a mindless fangirl. But, yeah. Glad to see this.

[sweettalkeress.livejournal.com]

The worst is that they say the exact same thing about Snape- when Snape isn't even a villain! It's so weird- if any character receives disproportionate punishment for anything they must have "deserved" it in some way, no matter if we ever even get said character's side of the story to begin with (they pretty much accept as gospel that Snape wanted to get James and Harry killed so he could "keep" Lily- even though the only one who suggests such a thing is Dumbledore, and Snape never really gives his side of the story).

And don't get me started on how if you criticize someone like Hermione or Ginny you're automatically treated as a raving misogynist (see the above quote- unfortunately this holds for ANY female character in ANY media even if the criticism is justified!).

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

Totally agree here. I quite like TV Tropes, but their stuff on Harry Potter is just embarassing. The Just Bugs Me section in particular is full of the most ridiculous fanwank ever. (One person tried to argue that before the last battle in DH all the Slytherins disguised themselves as members of other Houses, and this is why nobody noticed any of them. Erm, right...)

"How could they make such a claim?! Hermione is a better heroine than, say, Tiffany Aching?! How about Eliza Doolittle?! And I'm sure you could come up with other examples."

Or even some of the girls in the Chronicles of Narnia series. If I had any daughters, I'd much rather they model themselves after Jill Pole or Aravis than Hermione Face-Slasher Granger...

Seriously, JKR, when a conservative Christian who grew up in the Edwardian era writes better female characters than you, you might want to start reconsidering your feminist credentials.

[wolf-willow31.livejournal.com]

"Seriously, JKR, when a conservative Christian who grew up in the Edwardian era writes better female characters than you, you might want to start reconsidering your feminist credentials."

Seriously, JKR, you might want to consider working on your writing skills a bit, too.

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

Amen! I think Jill and Aravis are awesome. So is Orual, warrior-queen and protagonist of Till We Have Faces, one of Lewis's lesser-known books for adults. So is Katsa, below, and Fire (in the book of that title by Kristin Cashore). There are lots and lots of heroines in English/American/English-language literature who outdo and are better role models than any of Rowling's characters.

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

Hermione is a better heroine than, say, Tiffany Aching?! How about Eliza Doolittle?! And I'm sure you could come up with other examples.

Oh, yeah. Bluestar, Leafstar, Sandstorm, and many other cats in the Warriors series; Violet and Sunny Beaudelaire in the Series of Unfortunate Events; Irene Adler, Violet Hunter, and Kitty Winter from the original Sherlock Holmes stories.

Hey, Kitty Winter even permanently disfigures somebody by throwing acid in his face--just like Hermione! However, her victim was a black widower serial killer, so don't feel too bad for him.

Similar to C. S. Lewis, A. C. Doyle was a Victorian man with very traditional ideas of womanhood--women should be put on a pedestal, suffragettes were horrible, etc. Yet he created female characters who were more liberated than JKR's. How embarrassing.

[sunnyskywalker]

Or Katsa from Graceling, if you want to compare heroines' reactions to their own violence. Katsa does some pretty awful things (mostly because her uncle the king, who has trained her since childhood, orders it, and she's afraid to disobey) - and hates herself for it. She looks for ways to lessen punishments she's ordered to dish out whenever she can, and occasionally manages to talk her way out of things without anyone getting hurt. Even when she manages to kill the villain, she's disturbed because she thinks she did it too easily and for the wrong reasons. She actually recognizes and battles her dark side, and while she doesn't always succeed, she is at least actively trying to be a better person.

Also, even though she herself doesn't want to wear dresses, get married or have kids, she doesn't think there's anything wrong with women who do, and in fact is quite fond of her nurse (a fan of all three) and recommends her to care for another girl who needs help. She doesn't blame girls for not defending themselves, either, since she knows they don't know how, and thinks it's unfair that it's tradition not to teach them.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Hey, for a different take on classical gender roles in fantasy have a look at The Hero and the Princess by Sherwood Smith. I don't think Rowling's world has much room for people like Nelath. Maybe Luna has that kind of character but we don't see enough of her. Someone with power, who uses it at the least damaging level that solves the problem at hand while considering the broader lives of everyone involved.