Oh, TV Tropes...!

[sweettalkeress.livejournal.com]

Quite honestly, the Harry Potter stuff on that site has gotten to the point where I can't read it because just about everything is fawning over how great and super-special-awesome the series is, oh, and how Snape is an evil douchebag who wanted to get Harry and James killed so he could keep Lily. But this... this makes me want to scream:

"Hermione... [is] one of the smartest and more pro-active females in the whole Harry Potter canon and English literature in general"

WHAT THE FUCK?!?!?!

How could they make such a claim?! Hermione is a better heroine than, say, Tiffany Aching?! How about Eliza Doolittle?! And I'm sure you could come up with other examples.

No, no, in Harry Potter it seems fairly obvious that the most powerful women in the series are antagonists. Sure, Hermione's perfectly independent and capable, but in the last several books it's like she becomes Harry's servant because he's too lazy to do anything himself!

God damn it, Harry Potter wouldn't bother me so much if everyone didn't insist it was the greatest thing since sliced bread!

Comments

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

I've had no respect for TV tropes in relation to HP since I saw this thing on how Sirius and Snape were similar, using the example of Sirius setting Snape up to die at werewolf!Lupin's hands and Snape...calling Lily 'mudblood'. Because recklessly endangering someone's life (and btw, not caring that your supposed BFF could be imprisoned/executed for killing someone, let alone Lupin's own possible guilt) is the same as using an insult. True, a terrible racist insult, but really? *headdeskwallfloor*

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I'm not a fan of Snape - I mean, he was a *Death Eater*, and they were murdering terrorists, right? Although I've discussed that topic here before and have had the lack of canon proof of same stated - but yes, that comparison on its own is pretty silly.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

... calling someone something 'racist' is BAD, right?

That's how it works in the real world. If the race card label can be slapped against someone then nothing else much matters, all other conversation ceases. :-(

If only he had called Lily 'gold-digging, backstabbing cow' or 'middle-class-wannabe cunt'... He would be totally justified in calling her that --

Woah.

Okay, I know some folk here are pro-Snape, and I've enjoyed being acquainted with the canon evidence that favours him (which I didn't consider that much before) ... but do you seriously think LILY POTTER was all that? I mean, her middle name was 'saint', wasn't it?

My (default) position - we see very little of Lily in the series. One of the biggest flaws and laughing matters (when you include the interview material) is how Lily's 'sacrifice' was somehow of more merit than James defending his family with his life. Offensive, almost, what Rowling said to try and support it. That interview is one of the biggest jokes in all of her out-of-text gaffes, it's hilarious. When I think 'Lily' I typically stop right there at one of the biggest canon problems.

Lily and Snape were good friends, but he *did* call her that bad word, which was pretty stupid/ugly on his part. And she didn't approve of the company he was keeping ... which was fair enough, they were junior death eaters, we KNOW they were bad guys.

James was an arse/bully through most of Hogwarts but we're told he cleaned up his act near the end, congruent with his courting Lily. Hmm. I've seen something here about the canon timing, how James did something bad even after he hooked up with Lily? Can't remember it now.

Anyway, I'm surprised at your vehemence. Assuming there's canon material supporting it - like I've seen proffered here for the pro-Snape stance - can you point me at it? If there's a compilation/essay handy.

But there's so little actually written about Lily - practically nothing until DH - I can't see how she can be made out to be all that bad.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Hey, most of the 'Hermione is a sociopath' folk on the other blog post have backed off on that assertion (okay, 2-3 of them, including the author of the entry) so I figure I'm fighting the good fight on her behalf and making progress. :-) Hermione cut some corners to get things done but one has to turn a blind eye to a LOT of her canon traits to get within a whiff of 'psychopath'!!

A single instance of name-calling during extreme duress is NOT the most damning thing one can do.

Maybe I wasn't very clear in my earlier comment. I agree with you on this.

Let's just say that he only worthwhile thing that little narcissistic bint ever did was dying for her child.

That was basically her sole job in the books after all. A pity it was done so badly, with Rowling's wave-the-hands-please-look-away-OH-WOW-OLD-MAGIC-PROTECTION deus ex machina.

A bit like Snape, dying in order to protect a child who hates him.

True. But don't forget that the child hated him ... because of the way Snape treated him. Something of a circle there.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

Hey, most of the 'Hermione is a sociopath' folk on the other blog post have backed off on that assertion (okay, 2-3 of them, including the author of the entry) so I figure I'm fighting the good fight on her behalf and making progress. :-)

Er...

For what it's worth, I am simply not invested in whether she's a sociopath or not. I clarified my position because other people were, and I deliberately chose not to clarify my position *earlier* because you took a similar statement from someone else as a concession. As you're kind of doing here. Permit me to state: Boo.

I've seen enough evidence to think she has serious empathy issues. Exactly how far they go, I'm not sure. I'm still considering the evidence there. You aren't seriously considering the evidence, though, from what I can see, and that's kind of frustrating.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

'Boo', hey? YOU TAKE THAT BACK!!

:-)

A couple of people on that other thread started out saying "Hermione is a sociopath". By the end they were saying okay, she's not a full-on sociopath, she has merely displayed some traits - on occasion - that are consistent/shared with a sociopath.

I call that progress on the we-love-Hermione front. :-)

Please note that we all share traits with sociopaths. We all breathe oxygen, for example. No, seriously, some of the Hermione-is-a-sociopath evidence just shows that Hermione was willing to take a harsh action for a good cause/reason. But nothing saying that tomorrow she'd strike out as a full-blown sociopath and spread that action across all and sundry.

I honestly don't have a problem with Hermione's dumping Umbridge to the centaurs, for example. The woman was a sadist, tried to kill Harry with dementors, was about to torture him. If there'd been a lever handy in the castle wall with a sign saying "pull this to remove Umbridge" I'm sure Hermione would have taken that 'softer' option. As it was her author only gave her the choice of either (a) letting her best friend be tortured or (b) rescuing him. She took option (b). Good on her, I say. Umbridge deserved whatever she got. And please note - Hermione DID NOT take that action to wreck vengeance on Umbridge. She took action to save her best friend.

(Umbridge's punishment was collateral.)

I've seen enough evidence to think she has serious empathy issues.

Nah. You've seen Hermione under pressure trying to do the right thing. Sometimes we can see that she could have done better - but that's easy with hindsight. Also, sure, she's not perfect. But we can admit this without going all the way over to the extreme SHE'S A SOCIOPATH setting.

You're also ignoring all the cases where she HAS displayed empathy.

[oryx_leucoryx]

My position on Hermione is that she engages in enough behaviors worthy of a sociopath that whether or not she is in fact a certifiable one doesn't matter. If I knew that anyone I interact with IRL did anything on that level I'd stay away from such a person because it is impossible to know when one might find oneself on the receiving end of her self-righteous vindictiveness.

As for Harry, if he ever paid attention he'd realize his behavior earned him Severus' ire. That other teachers let him get away with stuff they shouldn't have doesn't mean Severus owed him that.

Severus and Harry's eulogy

[urbanman1984.livejournal.com]

Perhaps Harry did realise that after Snape was dead. Absence makes the heart grow fonder after all. Maybe he would have regarded Snape more favourably during his lifetime if Snape had been an Alan Rickman look alike! Then we would have been subjected to gushing descriptions from Harry about how ruggedly handsome he was.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

If I knew that anyone I interact with IRL did anything on that level I'd stay away from such a person ...

Ah, I think I see one of the biggest differences between us.

See, when I map the goings-on of the books into 'real life' and then hit a discontinuity I shrug my shoulders, note it as yet another example of Rowling's poor writing and move on. In other words, it's the author's credibility/worthiness as a writer which crumples first in any chain of 'extrapolation' that I employ in my mind.

But you soldier on. Your particular joy in your HP reconstruction work is to take Rowling's words more seriously, you soldier on where I've said "oh, Rowling's a bad author" and stopped. And so you get to these more 'extreme' positions where poor Hermione is a budding sociopath whom you'd eschew with extreme prejudice in the real world, etc. You're taking Rowling at her written word and mapping the books straight into real life without adjustment nor attenuation for what is a work of (poor) fiction.

I think that's a mistake. Because (a) Rowling just isn't that good a writer; we KNOW she didn't think all these things out, from her interviews and such. And (b) the books - and Rowling - just didn't have the depth, the detail, that you're expecting. It's like putting an electron microscope to bear on a brick; we're supposed to just see the brick, but you're picking up fractal patterns in a microscopic world of quartz molecules far removed from the brick's purpose/placement.

*considers that he could have come up with a better metaphor* :-)

I do think you still tend to 'amplify' those negative things that Hermione is seen to do and not similarly mark her up for all of her good deeds and emotions. But that's because you're trying to redeem those nasty death eaters too. :-)

[oryx_leucoryx]

But there's so little actually written about Lily - practically nothing until DH - I can't see how she can be made out to be all that bad.

If you have no expectations whatsoever about Lily then we still have (at the very least) her blaming Severus for reading Petunia's letter, her not even inquiring for his well-being after the werewolf debacle and not listening to his version of events but instead believing whatever rumor that originated with the Marauders - all that while claiming to be his 'best' friend, thinking James was worse than Mulciber because James' bullying was done with spells she considered 'non-Dark', regardless of how damaging his actions were (one of the most hypocritical lines in canon), using Severus' plight as an excuse to interact with James, not even listening to an apology Severus took a social and physical risk to deliver.

In a way I'm glad she picked James because she would have made Severus' life a nightmare anyway.

[oryx_leucoryx]

You forgot 'trying to hide a smile as your supposed 'best friend' gets incapacitated, choked on sope, and hang upside down, his underwear for all to see and pointed at'.

Right. using Severus' plight as an excuse to interact with James doesn't quite capture her behavior in the entire scene.

Lily and Petunia were sisters don't forget

[urbanman1984.livejournal.com]

Lily was essentially Petunia with pretty looks and magic powers. In JKR's creepy world view however, those details made all the difference. Petunia was worthless through being born a muggle, whereas Lily was a Gryffindor, hence always right.

The series is fun to parody when I don't have the stomach for something as monstrous as Sword of Truth. It's amazing that I could once bear to read either of them.

amused giggle or nervous twitch - a theory destroyed

[annoni-no.livejournal.com]

"You forgot 'trying to hide a smile as your supposed 'best friend' gets incapacitated, choked on sope, and hang upside down, his underwear for all to see and pointed at'.

I would be horrified and certainly wouldn't smile if this happened to someone I didn't like, but smiling when my *friend* gets bullied and publicly humiliated..?!"

You know, the first time I read the series I completely missed the Sev/Lily subtext until I read fan speculation about it sometime after HBP came out. Even then, I thought it was more of a 'well, every couple gets shipped by *someone*' phenomenon than anything that was actually strongly supported in-text. So, when I read this scene in OotP I was initially flummoxed in how I was supposed to read it since I thought that 1)Lily was stepping in on behalf of someone who was almost a complete stranger to her, and 2)Lily had been set up as one of the most virtuous and saintly characters in the HP world.

What I finally decided was going on given the evidence I (thought I) had was that Lily's lip twitch wasn't really a

'*snort* God, Potter's *hilarious* but I'd better make a show of being indignant for the sake of my reputation'

but more of an *extremely* nervous I-refuse-to-become-hysterical

'Oh God oh God I'm picking a fight with a guy who thinks nothing of sexually humiliating someone who's *INTERESTED* in me and what if he jumps me for this later or I lose this fight or or or-'

who then sucked it up and confronted him anyway.

Yes, this was blown completely out of the water later, but at the time it made me admire Lily immensely since I feel that true courage (and heroism) is more a matter of conquering fear than just taking advantage of a lack of it. So, yes, I could admit that Lily was clearly stalling when she talked to James instead of just hexing him, but I understood it as a matter of her honestly being afraid to start a fight no matter how talented a duelist she might actually have been, and that she might have genuinely thought (or convinced herself) that the best solution for everyone would be to try and deescalate the situation without further violence (something much easier to justify to oneself if one doesn't actually know the person half-choked and still acting as a living reminder of what the guy you're picking a fight with is capable of). Even the extremely creepy flirtatious vibe I was picking up could be handwaved as Lily falling back on stereotypical responses while she had most of her attention on what James was doing with his wand...

Lily just leaving after the "mudblood" comment was still inexcusable, but I read it as an indication of how her character developed later given her sainthood in the rest of the series: learning to give aid even to those who reject it, or don't seem deserving of it. In other words, acting out the ultimate expression of love. (You know, "love." That thing that's supposed to be the ultimate power in HP world?)

*Looks over old analysis* *God* I gave Rowling a lot of credit. I thought the ambiguity was deliberate, and that she wanted us to stop and think about *all* the ways that scene didn't line up with what we thought we knew of the characters. I was just so sure that after having James built up all series only to tear him to shreds with this scene, that we supposed to pivot our attention to Lily, who we'd barely heard 'boo' about, and that she would then show Harry the path forward on how to extend his love (Rowling's then-claimed ULTIMATE POWER) from those in his immediate to everyone, and that using Snape was deliberate. That she would reveal that Lily had had another encounter with Severus where again she was the only one able or willing to help him, and that *this* time she Did the Right Thing - and Harry would learn that he had to follow his mother's example and let go of his father's.

Whatever else you might say about her writing, Rowling's early books were a masterwork in giving readers enough rope to hang themselves on whatever theories they wished.

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

while they have in fact far more in common with the IRA, the Irish Republican Army

This is probably the reason that I never felt honestly frightened by the DE's. I know that Rowling really wants them to come off as this huge, terrifying legion of Voldemort worshippers, but considering their number and tactics, they come off more as a small but persistent terrorist cell. Certainly terrorists are frightening and dangerous, but hardly the epic threat I think she was going for.

[sunnyskywalker]

Not even that persistent, either. How many DE incidents were there that we know of between the attack on the Longbottoms and the riot at the World Cup?

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

Kind of makes me wonder what they were doing all the rest of the time. Taking a vacation?

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

Quietly rejoicing that the madman was gone and they could get back to their lives?

[the-bitter-word.livejournal.com]

they come off more as a small but persistent terrorist cell

The more I think about it, and reflecting on the actions of Kingsley Shackelbolt, someone who mind-wiped a minor without due process, yet who in Rowling's mind (http://wiki.unknowableroom.org/BLC) became permanent Minister for Magic, the whole Death Eater/Order of the Phoenix thing seems like one big Slytherin/Gryffindor gang fight to control the little neighborhood of the Wizarding World. Both are barely-competent organizations created and led by strong, no-questions-asked leaders who primarily recruit from their own social networks; both are extra-legal except for infiltrators in the legal structures or corrupt officials on payroll; both are willing to use strong-arm tactics and mind-erasing and deceit and who knows what to achieve their ends. Severus is the informer between the gangs. It's like West Side Story crossed with The Wire, or something.

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

Wow, I have to say that this is a really interesting take on the whole thing.

Also, I think Harry Potter would be better with West Side Story's choreography. Just a thought. ;-)

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I've thought for a long time HP is like West Side Story, and all the "climactic battles" are really rumbles. I've even imagined Lily singing to Severus as he tries to make up with her outside the Gryffindor common room:

A boy like you, who called me "mudblood,"
I'm dumping you for a nice pureblood.
Stay with your own House!
Stay with your own House.

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't expect everyone to have the same feelings about Snape as I do, but I couldn't believe people could seriously think those two situations were on the same level! O.o