Oh, TV Tropes...!

[sweettalkeress.livejournal.com]

Quite honestly, the Harry Potter stuff on that site has gotten to the point where I can't read it because just about everything is fawning over how great and super-special-awesome the series is, oh, and how Snape is an evil douchebag who wanted to get Harry and James killed so he could keep Lily. But this... this makes me want to scream:

"Hermione... [is] one of the smartest and more pro-active females in the whole Harry Potter canon and English literature in general"

WHAT THE FUCK?!?!?!

How could they make such a claim?! Hermione is a better heroine than, say, Tiffany Aching?! How about Eliza Doolittle?! And I'm sure you could come up with other examples.

No, no, in Harry Potter it seems fairly obvious that the most powerful women in the series are antagonists. Sure, Hermione's perfectly independent and capable, but in the last several books it's like she becomes Harry's servant because he's too lazy to do anything himself!

God damn it, Harry Potter wouldn't bother me so much if everyone didn't insist it was the greatest thing since sliced bread!

Comments

[wolf-willow31.livejournal.com]

There are lots of people posting that sort of stuff: calling anyone who questions anything about Lilly "misogynist", "racist", "hater", etc. It upsets me a lot, but I guess they're the same people that cut you off in traffic and then flip you the bird. The world is unfortunately full of 'em.

I used to have a more open mind about Lily, but they changed it for me. I'm now firmly in the camp of "she was a narcissistic gold-digger."

As for Snape wanting "to get James and Harry killed so he could 'keep' Lily", he actually let her go when she dumped him. He appears to have accepted her decision, and didn't stalk her afterward. In fact, he seems to have largely forgotten about her until he inadvertently betrayed her to the Dark Lord.

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

As for Snape wanting "to get James and Harry killed so he could 'keep' Lily", he actually let her go when she dumped him. He appears to have accepted her decision, and didn't stalk her afterward.

Contrast that with James's behavior towards Lily. He pranced around showing off to impress her, threatened Lily with hexing (while blaming her for it if he had), and tried to blackmail her into going out with him by offering to quit attacking Snape. Later, when they were dating, he lied to her about having changed his bullying behavior towards Snape. Behaviors 1 and 4 are those of egotistical, chronic cheaters who treat women like objects; 2 and 3 are classic abuser behaviors, to wit: blaming the victim for "making" you abuse her, and extorting her compliance with threats to someone she cares about.

I don't buy for a second the BS excuse that he was young, and he miraculously changed in the next few years. People do what works. If James got the girl he wanted--not to mention status and acclaim at school--by being a self-centered, dishonest, misogynistic, exploitative bully, he had no reason to improve either his conduct or his character. He just needed to get better at lying so he could continue to get away with his bad behavior.

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

If James got the girl he wanted--not to mention status and acclaim at school--by being a self-centered, dishonest, misogynistic, exploitative bully, he had no reason to improve either his conduct or his character. He just needed to get better at lying so he could continue to get away with his bad behavior.

Which canonically he did, attacking Snape behind her back. (Allegedly Snape attacked him as well, which is pretty likely, but it's not like the Head Boy didn't have other, non-violent ways, of retaliating.)

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

Allegedly Snape attacked him as well, which is pretty likely,

I don't blame him if he did. After six years of being relentlessly terrorized, he probably had a "hex first and ask questions later" mentality. He'd be like those women who murder their abusive husbands, not because they're being beaten or having their lives threatened now, but because they know that, sooner or later, he's going to kill them, so they figure they'd better kill him first.

In another nice example of a JKR sycophant being prejudiced against Snape, one of them called dontgiveahoot once insisted to me that the bullying was "100% MUTUAL." (Hir emphasis.) That's more BS. Even canon makes clear James was the aggressor towards many students, not just Severus. We have NO incidents of Severus bullying other students when he attended Hogwarts.

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

"Allegedly Snape attacked him as well, which is pretty likely,"

Maybe, although if James managed to keep Lilly from finding out about his feud it seems likely that their fights were mostly at times and places of James' choosing. If Snape did attack James, he probably didn't do so very often.

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

What I would like to know is why these fans seem to love St. Lily and also not see the fact that they are kind of portraying her more as an object to be fought over by Snape and James than a capable woman who makes her own choices. As a feminist it kind of makes me ill.

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

A very good point. I find the insistence on St. Lily rather reflective of the subtle misogyny that puts all women on pedestals, instead of being able to see her as an individual with good points and flaws. The argument that criticizing Lily = misogyny has it exactly backwards.

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

There is something exceedingly odd about a woman writer putting women on a pedestal. I mean, doesn't she know that women aren't perfect angels from the fact that she herself is a woman?

I never really felt like Lily was a person so much as a construct of all that JKR felt was good and loving. Like most Dickens heroines, except with more magic!

[merrymelody.livejournal.com]

I think the thing is, while she may idealise women (in a very set, traditional way, ie. the women most idealised are the ones getting married young, having babies, and having no described jobs outside of child-rearing. Alice Longbottom became an Auror in OotP, but prior to that, Rowling refers to her specifically as a wife. Ie. her natural thought pattern is women as wives. Only upon further consideration of the character does she apparently wonder - did this woman have anything to her besides her son and husband?
Ones like Rita Skeeter who's devoted to her job are described as 'mannish'. Women who deviate from the pattern are criticised with much more passion than deviant men. Even Voldemort.), she doesn't really find them interesting. Like the culture around her, she seems to privilege men driving the action and being the interesting ones while women are generally sidelined.
For example, while Lily is the more positively portrayed one in her marriage, it's James who (supposedly) changes and has growth. It's James who has this circle of friends (female friendship another thing that apparently bores Rowling) who influence the plot, who leaves his invisibility cloak, who's Harry's namesake and Patronus. Even James II is described more vividly than little Lily Luna!
Lily may have been saintlike, but her main character plot is the most ancient one for women: object for men to fight over. (Oh, and of course, mother and wife!)

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

"and having no described jobs outside of child-rearing"

I don't think that's entirely accurate; Hermione and Ginny Sue both had high-flying jobs.

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

I find the insistence on St. Lily rather reflective of the subtle misogyny that puts all women on pedestals, instead of being able to see her as an individual with good points and flaws. The argument that criticizing Lily = misogyny has it exactly backwards.

About 25 years ago, comedian/actor Steve Martin had a TV special. During part of it, he talked about "What I Believe." The only part I remember was him saying, "And I believe a woman should be put on a pedestal--so I can look up her dress." That says it all, right there.

Every time I hear somebody acting like it's honoring women to put them on pedestals, I think of Martin's words. Pedestals are designed for statues and vases, not living beings.

[sweettalkeress.livejournal.com]

What they say is, "Lily CHOSE to abandon Snape after he proved to be a hateful little creep for calling her a racist insult. You know, rather than put up with his abusively genocidal-racist behavior."

You have to admit, though, that that does appear to be how James sees her.

I remember once someone tried to explain the SWM incident in a Muggle context by saying that it was like James had stolen and started throwing Snape's homework (or something), and Snape had replied by cutting him with a knife and then calling Lily a racist insult. Except that James was clearly shown to be doing something far worse....

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

What James did was more like knocking Snape down when Snape wasn't looking, then kicking Snape once he was on the ground, tying Snape up, and getting James's friend to help assault Severus once he was helpless. Then, when Severus managed to get an arm free, he pulled a knife and scratched his chief assailant in self-defense.

It's worth noting that here in Florida, a law was passed several years ago making it legal to defend yourself with lethal force. So if SWM had happened in the last few years, Severus could AK James and Sirius, and suffer no legal consequences. In the extremely conservative area I live in, I'm sure he be considered a hero for saving the county the cost of a trial and taking a couple of dangerous juvenile delinquents off the streets. I bring that up because it provides an interesting alternate perspective on this incident.

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

There are lots of people posting that sort of stuff: calling anyone who questions anything about Lilly "misogynist", "racist", "hater", etc. It upsets me a lot, but I guess they're the same people that cut you off in traffic and then flip you the bird. The world is unfortunately full of 'em.

I always think it's funny when they do that. In this context, those insults are the adult equivalent of calling somebody a "poopy-head" or saying they have cooties. That is, they don't really mean anything. They're just a way for people who say those things to marginalize people who disagree with them. When they call me those things, I just imagine a three-year-old calling me a poopy-head. It knocks them down to the size they really are.

I used to have a more open mind about Lily, but they changed it for me. I'm now firmly in the camp of "she was a narcissistic gold-digger."

IKR? Being so rabid towards anybody who disagrees with them only has the effect of making people angry. It makes me want to hate and insult Lily just to spite them. ;-)

I don't think she was a narcissistic gold-digger, but I don't think she was any more virtuous than Severus, either. She certainly wasn't warm and nurturing. As for the gold-digging, like all girl baby boomers, I'm sure she grew up having her mother tell her, "It's just as easy to fall in love with a rich man as it is a poor one." That kind of indoctrination has an effect whether you want it to or not.

There's also nothing virtuous in her joining the OP rather than the DEs. It doesn't take goodness to turn your back on the group that's threatening people of your ethnic group, and join the group that's protecting them.

Regarding the racist and misogynist claims: If criticizing Lily makes you a misogynist, then criticizing Severus logically must make you a misanthrope. Calling people like me racists for criticizing her is also ludicrous. Minority fans can claim Lily as one of their own all they want. The fact remains she is white. That's canon. She's a WASP, and so am I. She's a witch, and I have abilities that would have gotten me condemned for witchcraft in previous centuries. We're just alike. I can't be a bigot for criticizing somebody who's just like me.

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

and I have abilities that would have gotten me condemned for witchcraft in previous centuries.

Waiiiit a second... huh?

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

There's also nothing virtuous in her joining the OP rather than the DEs. It doesn't take goodness to turn your back on the group that's threatening people of your ethnic group, and join the group that's protecting them.

There nothing virtuous about her joining the order rather than the DEs. There is something positive, at least, about fighting to protect your group, even yourself, rather than letting other people do it. Do we know of any other Muggleborns in the Order?

[oryx_leucoryx]

Do we know of any other Muggleborns in the Order?

Other than Lily and Hermione there are no confirmed Muggleborns involved in either war until the battle of Hogwarts (where we have Colin and Muggle-raised, but probably half-blood Dean).

Of the members of the first Order we have confirmed purebloods: James, Sirius, Gideon and Fabian Prewett, Frank and Alice Longbottom.

Confirmed half-bloods: canonically Albus and Aberforth, Mundungus Flethcer, and extra-canonically Remus and Minerva.

Confirmed child of wizard-other species: Hagrid.

Confirmed having at least one wizard relative or showing signs of wizarding upbringing: Elphias Doge (had dragon pox before school), Edgar Bones, Alastor Moody (can't manage a faucet?), Dedalus Diggle (driving is such a rare ability!), probably Peter Pettigrew (would the Ministry have sent his Order of Merlin to his mother had she been a Muggle?).

Unknown: those we know nothing about except that they died: Marlene McKinnon, Dorcas Meadows, Caradoc Dearborn and Benjy Fenwick.
Also Emmeline Vance who lived to the second war and died after having one appearance in OOTP ch 3 and Sturgis Podmore who also survived to the second war to appear briefly, become Imperiurized and be arrested.

Hestia Jones - may or may not have been in the first Order, isn't any more clued into Muggle life than Dedalus Diggle.

Of those who joined the second Order - we have the Weasleys who are purebloods, Tonks - a half-blood, Kingsley - of wizarding upbringing (firelegs? really?).

Others who get involved in DH include Fleur, whose parents are a wizard and a half-Veela, Lee Jordan whose father is a wizard and Augusta Longbottom - pureblood.

Maybe some of the parents and Hogsmeade folks that joined Horace Slughorn's reinforcements were Muggle-borns but we don't know of specific examples.

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

There nothing virtuous about her joining the order rather than the DEs. There is something positive, at least, about fighting to protect your group, even yourself, rather than letting other people do it.

Well, yeah, but...

Given how small the wizarding world is, it might have been hard for her to sit the war out, particularly when one considers:

a) She was a Gryffindor, and you know how they love to fight. ;-)

b) She had made a big deal out of publicly dumping her "future DE" friend, thus declaring her opposition to that group. After that, joining the Order would be a reasonable next step.

c) She was slated to marry an Order member, all of whose friends were in the Order, and whose parents were friends with the founder of the Order. It would have looked awfully weird if she hadn't joined, given all that. One of my sisters joined a church she didn't care about when she married, just because her husband and in-laws were dedicated members, and her joining was expected. Lily may have looked at it something like that.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

That's true. (c) is particularly convincing; that *would* have looked weird. Still, that doesn't necessarily mean that she wouldn't've wanted to join the Order anyway. Fair's fair.

[sunnyskywalker]

She could have kept her head down and not joined any groups, relying on the Order to protect her instead of actively taking a risk and joining... although given that we don't know what she actually did for the Order, maybe there isn't actually much distinction between the joining and not-joining options.

Because I love vocabulary: misandrist, actually! "Anthropos" > misanthrope is more like "human" than specifically "male" (though it is a masculine noun). Aner, andros is the word for specifically male human beings, as opposed to gyne (woman). So, misanthropes hate people, misogynists hate women, and misandrists hate men.

[oryx_leucoryx]

We don't know if Lily joined the Order because she wanted to (in order to fight for her place in wizarding society?) or because she followed James. We don't know if James joined because of some principled belief, to protect Lily, out of family loyalty to the Dumbledore faction, or because fighting DEs was the most exciting game in town.

We know Lily and James defied Voldemort 3 times (each? altogether?) but we have no idea what this entailed. (Nor do we know if the Longbottoms did anything as Order members apart from what they did as Aurors. We have no idea what the Order did period.)

[sunnyskywalker]

I think pretty much all we can say about that defiance was that it did not involve fighting Voldemort and escaping, since supposedly no one ever survived until Harry. They might have just published scathing letters to the editor in the Prophet about how strongly they disagreed with Voldemort.

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the correction. I knew misanthrope meant hater of humans, but I couldn't think of a word that specifically applied to someone who hates men. I just love learning new words, also.

[sunnyskywalker]

There's so many interesting words out there, too.

[sunlit-music.livejournal.com]

There's nothing wrong with calling misogynist/racist if that's what they are. But to call someone a misogynist/racist because they question anything about Lily is just ridiculous and hurtful.

I liked Lily when she stood up for Severus on the train and smiled at him sadly when they went to join their separate houses. It was so sad to see her friendship with Severus fall apart. I don't think she was perfect though. I am fascinated by Lily and Severus' relationship, and I think they are both deeply flawed.