OOTP Chapter Twenty-Nine: "Careers Advice"

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

* And in case there was any lingering doubt as to whether OOTP was too padded, here’s an entire chapter where the most noteworthy thing that happens is Harry getting a bit of careers advice. Oh joy.

* Snape cancelling the Occlumency lessons isn’t (just) because he’s angry at Harry for seeing SWM. Harry’s behaviour also represented a security risk – Snape probably put all his memories showing that he was a double agent in there, and he couldn’t run the risk that Harry would look in the Pensieve again, see some of them, and then get mind-read by Voldemort and reveal Severus’ true allegiance in that way.

* Hermione’s usually very trusting of teachers, but now she’s all “I don’t think Snape should stop until you’re absolutely sure you can control them!” presumably because the plot needs Harry to feel guilty now.

* I’m glad that Harry still has enough empathy to feel horrified at the Marauders’ behaviour, although it’s a pity this never really went anywhere.

* “Harry could not imagine Fred and George dangling someone upside-down for the fun of it... not unless they really loathed them... perhaps Malfoy, or somebody who really deserved it...” Erm, Harry, has it perhaps occurred to you that the Marauders did “really loathe” Snape, and that, from the point of view of a disinterested outsider, the Twins’ behaviour might seem little better than what you saw James and Sirius doing?

* “‘I wish I could talk to Sirius,’ Harry muttered. ‘But I know I can’t.’” Yeah, Harry, I mean it’s not like Sirius gave you a present specifically for use if you wanted to contact him. Such a pity, that…

* Muggle relations jobs don’t need many OWLs, because wizards don’t really care much about interacting with the other 99% of the world’s population.

* Also, “much more important is your enthusiasm, patience and a good sense of fun!” sounds like the sort of thing you’d say to somebody working with children or animals rather than adults.

* Plus, you don’t really need “enthusiasm, patience and a good sense of fun”, just skill at doing memory charms. That seems to be the main method of wizard-muggle interaction, after all.

* Messing up people’s revision time is “the very last thing” Fred and George want to do. Apparently giving somebody boils doesn’t count as messing up their revision, then.

* I doubt that Sirius’ knife open literally any door. If it’s bewitched to resist Alohomora, it could probably resist the knife as well.

* Being given a zero for his potion isn’t that bad a punishment, actually. It’s not like it’s going to contribute towards his OWL score, so he hasn’t really missed out on anything except feedback and possibly the pride of being given a good mark. He certainly hasn’t missed out on enough to justify him being unable to talk to Hermione.

* “[Being an Auror is] a difficult career path, Potter, they only take the best.” Or people who’ve managed, by a series of incredibly lucky coincidences, to beat the most incompetent Dark Lord ever.

* So, the Aurors require good marks and passing a series of aptitude tests. Let’s see, Harry consistently copies off Hermione when doing his schoolwork, charges into potentially dangerous situations without thinking or calling for backup, and seems content to trust whatever he’s told provided it comes from people he likes, whilst refusing to entertain any notion that his personal enemies might be right. Can anybody really see him fulfilling the criteria for being an Auror, let alone rising to become their head whilst still in his twenties? Seems to me like he’ll spend the rest of his career playing off his Chosen One status to get himself promoted to positions well beyond his actual competence.

* “‘I was just wondering whether Mr. Potter has quite the temperament for an Auror?’ said Professor Umbridge sweetly.” Once again, the bad guys’ assessment of the heroes’ qualities and actions is correct, although probably for the wrong reason (cf. Lucius Malfoy).

* We can tell that Umbridge’s note represents trouble because the parchment it’s written on is pink, the evil colour.

* I sort of pity Harry here. He’s so obviously just the pawn for Umbridge and McGonagall’s little power struggle. Although it makes a change from being obviously just the pawn for Dumbledore and Fudge’s power struggle, I suppose.

* Also, getting into a shouting match in front of your pupils is very undignified and unprofessional behaviour. Minerva really ought to have known better than to do so.

* DADA today is centred around “Chapter Thirty-Four: Non-Retaliation and Negotiation”. Because only evil people would prefer negotiations to fighting. I’ve probably said this before, but for a woman who self-consciously borrows so much Messianic imagery for her hero, JK Rowling seems remarkably hostile towards the whole “turn the other cheek” concept.

* So Harry’s sitting around moping and thinking of the knife which Sirius gave him and which he plans to use so he can talk to Sirius. Somehow, he doesn’t think of the mysterious present which Sirius gave him specifically so they can talk to each other if Harry has any problems.

* Ron keeps saying that Harry should make his own decision. This is quite a consistent view for him to adopt, but I’m not entirely sure what to make of it – sometimes (as with the House Elves) this seems like principled support for not imposing your ideas of what’s best on people, other times (like now) it seems like he’s just too cowardly to express an opinion and risk upsetting anyone.

* Snape was “up to his eyes in the Dark Arts”, whereas James wasn’t. So, how exactly do the Dark Arts differ from normal magic? Is it that they can’t be used for good purposes (as opposed to normal magic, which can be used for both good and bad)? But then, why should using Dark Magic be considered any worse than using normal magic to attack somebody?

* James was “everything Snape wanted to be” – so awesome, in other words, that even scenes where he bullies people with no provocation indicate just how awesome he is.

* Funny, from the way Sirius and Lupin talk about SWM, you’d think they were just partaking in some high-spirited schoolboy antics, rather than a rather serious piece of abuse.

* James was “a good person”, despite acting like a bad one. Seems like an example of the pseudo-Calvinist outlook of these books: if you’re good you’re good, no matter what your actual behaviour is like.

* Are we meant to be thinking badly of Filch for wanting to whip the twins? Because whipping somebody doesn’t seem particularly bad for a society with such a cavalier attitude to physical danger (even McGonagall gives eleven-year-olds detention in the Forbidden Forest, which has the potential to turn far nastier than a spot of light corporal punishment would).

* Besides, it’s not like regular punishments seem to work particularly well on Fred and George. I suppose a bit of corporal punishment might be worth a try.

* I’m surprised Umbridge or the IS don’t do more to stop Fred and George from escaping. Like Stunning them, or conjuring a brick wall in mid-air to block their path.

Comments

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

He'd learn that just because someone was nice to him didn't mean that person couldn't also be unjustifiably horrible to others (paging Fred and George...). And he'd learn to grow beyond what he thought his dad might have done, or what various living adults said, and could accept that someone dying heroically to protect their family didn't mean they were necessarily wonderful people in general.

I don't know why he should. Many of his "adult" fans still haven't figured that out. For that matter, neither has his creator. Once I was looking at HMS_STFU, and somebody insisted that whatever horrible things James had done when he was younger didn't matter because dying to save his family wiped all of it out. As I pointed out in another recent post, there were a lot of Nazis who were loving family members and friends. That doesn't mean they were good people. As Jesus said, there's no merit in treating the people you like well because anybody can do that. What takes character is being kind to the people you can't stand.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Once I was looking at HMS_STFU, and somebody insisted that whatever horrible things James had done when he was younger didn't matter because dying to save his family wiped all of it out. As I pointed out in another recent post, there were a lot of Nazis who were loving family members and friends. That doesn't mean they were good people.

Or for canon examples, see Vernon standing between Hagrid, and later Arthur, and Petunia and Dudley. Doesn't make him a less nasty person. Of course he didn't actually die, and as it turned out the scary wizards were of the kind that would 'only' give his son a pig's tail or wipe memories of inconvenient Muggles rather than kill them, so I suppose Vernon's stand for his family against more powerful people doesn't count.

Or take the Malfoys. Both Lucius and Narcissa would have died for Draco, if necessary. Doesn't counter whatever they did for Voldemort's cause or pureblood supremacy or whatever.

[aasaylva.livejournal.com]

Which is why I never understood the general assumption that Narcissa had to get off scott-free (supposing she HAD done something else besides hosting Voldemort) because she helped Harry by declaring him dead in the forest. She obviouly didn't do it for any other motive than saving her son (however weird THAT assumption is constructed)- not because she had suddenly seen the light and decided Voldy's partyline was wrong.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

Does her motive matter? I mean, what if Lucius had AK'd Voldemort in the back during that conversation, but only because (on the hope that Draco was still alive) he wanted to keep Voldemort from endangering his son further. Would his motive matter, in such a situation?

[aasaylva.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think it would. My reasoning is this:
Motive does not matter in decidíng if a certain action can be constructed as a crime or not. For example if you shoot someone knowing full well this is a) a human being (and not a boar or a deer or something) and b) this may result in a deadly wound, then you are guilty of manslaughter at least. It may be justified in case of defence of yourself or someone else. So - if Lucius had AK'd Voldemort in order to save his son from danger, I'd say his action could be constructed as justifiable homicide.
The situation I was thinking of, however, is a different one: There, (still assuming Narcissa had committed some crime on Voldemort's behalf for which she could have been held accountable in the first place)Narcissa's saving Harry has nothing to do with her previous crime in the first place. Just like you cannot plead innocent of killing X, because at some later time, you saved Y from drowning or something. The only way Narcissa's action towards Harry might help her in a trial is, if it showed that her previous entanglement with Voldemort was due to duress or whatever. Thus, the "right" motive might establish a bona fide in deciding what prompted her to her original crime in case there were any doubts as to that.

[oryx_leucoryx]

It is Harry who thinks her motive is to see her son sooner, rather than later. Nor does it make sense as a motive. She could have told the truth in order to have Voldemort deal with Harry there and then so she could go and see her son. Which means that whatever her underlying motive, her goal was to save Harry, and the side he was on, not just there and then but in the war entirely.

I doubt she denounced pureblood supremacy. But it's not hard to believe she realized Voldemort's rise ended up doing no good to her family and his complete victory would not improve their situation.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

I don't think anyone would say that what happened in the forest makes Narcissa the most wonderful person ever but it does make her smart enough to realize what is best for herself, her family and everyone else. If she was loyal to Voldemort she had no reason to save Harry. If she really agreed with how Voldemort did things she would not have hesitated to say Harry was still alive.

And I really don't see how telling Voldemort Harry was dead would not get her to Draco any faster. They would have been going to the castle either way. Even if it was only for Draco that she did things then I don't really see Narcissa as being any different than Lily or any mother. Basicly two mothers on both ends of the spectrum killed Voldemort. In some way Harry was just the middle man to 'mothers love'.

I think Narcissa saw the writing on the wall when Voldie and the DE showed up at her house killing people and locking people up in their basement.

I don't think Narcissa was like her sister, my personal opinion on the character is that she stayed out of it. She probably had the bad opinion of muggles/muggle-born just like the rest of her family but I did not see her as the kind of character who went out kill/torturing or joining in with the Death Eater torture.

Also, consider the fact that Narcissa was pregnant at the same time Lily was. In the first war she would not have been going around battling the Order/Ministry. While Narcissa is older than Lily those two were pregnant at the same time. I just never saw Narcissa as a real supporter of Voldemort.

I think Draco was born in June, so I almost wonder being that it was so close to when Harry was born..wouldn't the Malfoys would have been suspect in some way due to her being with child? I'm sure Lucius had to explain that the baby was going to be born in June...but unless Magical people can predict when a baby is born better than humans then what is a month in terms of a child being born? Doctors told my mother I was going to be born in a certain month and I was actually born a month later.

I think Narcissa realized that Voldemort was not doing her family any good. I think there was more reason for her to lie than just so she could get to Draco. I think she was thinking about saving her family's life, etc. I think she knew Voldemort would kill them just as easily as anyone else if he decided they were of no use to him anymore.

[oryx_leucoryx]

We agree in general spirit, though I'm going to nit-pick about the details a bit.

I agree about the Lily/Narcissa comparison.

I think Draco was born in June, so I almost wonder being that it was so close to when Harry was born..wouldn't the Malfoys would have been suspect in some way due to her being with child? I'm sure Lucius had to explain that the baby was going to be born in June...

I doubt Voldemort shared anything about the prophecy with anyone who didn't know already (ie Severus) until after Harry's escape from the graveyard (when he thought the missing bit of the prophecy might provide explanations).

His actions show he only chose whom to kill after July 1980 ended and he could know who was actually born.

I think Narcissa saw the writing on the wall when Voldie and the DE showed up at her house killing people and locking people up in their basement.

Ollivander was placed in the basement in the summer of 1996, within weeks from her visit at Severus' home, when she got him to make the Unbreakable Vow. I'm wondering when Voldemort moved in with the Malfoys. Maybe around the time of Lucius' arrest? Narcissa was Voldemort's hostage in her own house. And I'm sure she knew her family was in danger of being killed by the day Voldemort gave Draco his assignment. I don't know how much she hoped to gain by having Severus' help - perhaps she already knew she was merely buying them time, because after Dumbles would be killed Voldie would be making further demands of them using the same threat (why change a winning tactic?).

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

I doubt Voldemort shared anything about the prophecy with anyone who didn't know already (ie Severus) until after Harry's escape from the graveyard (when he thought the missing bit of the prophecy might provide explanations).

It's quite possible he didn't tell Lucius but then again it's possible Severus might have. So this is just speculation on my part since we don't have a ton of facts on this info to tell us exactly, then again I'm trying to remember how people knew Voldemort was going to make a choice between Neville and Harry? As in How Dumbledore found out, am under the assumption that Severus told Dumbledore Voldie had the options, one might assume that Severus could have or might have warned Lucius of the danger to Narcissa and her baby.

I'm making the assumption here that Voldie was keeping an eye on the pregnant women or in passing comment he would have heard or known Narcissa was Pregnant. There is no reason for him to tell Lucius why he's asking a question about Narcissa's due date. I'd assume Narcissa being pregnant and the birth of Draco being so close to July would have at least put them on the potentials list. Even if Voldie didn't tell Lucius, I'm sure he might have asked when the baby was due.

His actions show he only chose whom to kill after July 1980 ended and he could know who was actually born.

Unless it was made after draco's birthday I'm gonna make the wild assumption that Voldemort knew Narcissa was pregnant. So unless the magical people have more accurate birth dating one might think he was at the very least curious about the due date. Thats kinda what I'm getting at, how he asked, or why or how the conversation went or how he found out isn't quite as important as my common sense tells me that Voldemort would have at least asked when Narcissa was due. And again this is assuming that the prophecy was made before Draco was born.

I don't know how much she hoped to gain by having Severus' help - perhaps she already knew she was merely buying them time, because after Dumbles would be killed Voldie would be making further demands of them using the same threat (why change a winning tactic?).</>

Maybe being that Severus was an 'old friend' to Lucius, Narcissa knew to trust Severus because he had already proved himself to be a reliable friend to Lucius. Maybe in the first war Severus helped Lucius and Narcissa then. I can't say for sure, but her going to Severus seems to suggest she trusted him enough to believe he would not rat her out to Voldemort. I sort of feel like Lucius told her to trust Severus. Because she didn't say, she and Severus were such good friends. She used Lucius as the connection to Severus, saying they were 'old friends' - making me feel like Lucius might have told her to trust Severus before she trusted any other Death Eater, etc.

[oryx_leucoryx]

then again I'm trying to remember how people knew Voldemort was going to make a choice between Neville and Harry

People didn't know. Albus himself knew the wording of the prophecy, so in retrospect he could work out that the prophecy could theoretically apply to both Harry and Neville, but there is no mention in canon that Voldemort ever considered anyone but Harry. (He may have, but by the time Severus defected the choice was made, and there is no evidence for Voldemort targeting any other child specifically. The DEs did kill at least two other families of Order members - the McKinnons and the Boneses, but there is no indication it had anything to do with the prophecy.)

Note that in HBP Horace invites Neville to the proto-Slug Club on the train because he was one of the kids who fought at the Ministry (and his parents were once famous Aurors), but there is no indication he thought Neville was involved in any way with the rumored prophecy itself.

Whether Tom knew or didn't know that Narcissa was pregnant is besides the point unless Lucius and Narcissa were in the habit of defying him from back then.

As for if wizards have better ways of predicting births - you mean witches never go into preterm labor as a result of physical or emotional adverse events? Also consider that labor itself can be short or long. A pregnancy that reaches term in late July can easily result in a birth in early August.

I agree Narcissa trusted Severus. What I am wondering is if she realistically expected the assistance to be a one-off thing that would be over once the task is done or if she already realized Voldemort had the three of them cornered for as long as he was around.

[sunnyskywalker]

I just miss the days when it still seemed like a possibility that JKR might go there. We could still hope that she actually had this big reversal planned where she would make fans suddenly have to reevaluate their opinions of all these characters, just as she had usually done with reversing our expectations of the plot and of whether Snape was the bad guy or not (lots of people seemed to be surprised that the mean guy wasn't the villain that time). Looking at this section of the book again, I wonder if she was setting that up, but chickened out just like she chickened out about killing Arthur, and now can't bear to be too mean to her precious characters even in interviews. Such a shame.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

I keep coming back to the fact that James turned out to be a total idiot when it came to defending his family. Everyone had always assumed that James dueled Voldemort before he died, especially since that's what Voldemort had said had happened at the end of PS, but James didn't even have his wand. He rushed towards the sound of his front door being bashed open completely unharmed. What was Rowling thinking when she wrote this? Despite whatever she has said in her interviews, nothing of what she actually shows us of James in the story is at all flattering. What, exactly, are we supposed to like about this character?

[oryx_leucoryx]

I suppose only cowardly, untrustworthy people behave with any kind of sense? I wonder how Rowling drives (or engages in any other everyday activity with some inherent risk).

[detritius.livejournal.com]

I could be wrong, but I think I remember reading somewhere that she doesn't drive. Which, if true, is probably better for everyone.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Yes, same think I think. James was a dumbass.

I could see it if James was the muggleborn. I mean, he would not have been raised around magical people, carrying a wand would maybe not be second nature.

But James was raised a pureblood, raised around magic, raised from birth around people who used magic daily and on a regular basis. It should have been second nature to him to have his wand at all times. It's not like for 11 years of his life he wasn't exposed to magic and then suddenly he had to learn about it.

So him not having a wand and just running to the door like someone who never used magic? WTF?

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

Exactly. Where was the "tremendous fight" that Voldemort said that James had put up? Why would Voldemort have any reason to make James look good to Harry? In Harry's dementor visions in PoA, he hears James saying that he'll "hold [Voldemort] off." *How?* How on earth did James, the pureblood wizard who has grown up with magic all his life and who's a member of the Order of the Phoenix no less, expect to *hold off* Voldemort without a wand, let alone defeat him?

I really don't know what JKR was thinking. Maybe she just forgot about what she had said in PS/SS, but even so, how could she think that that sorry excuse for a confrontation made James look good? Like you said, it just made him look like an idiot!

(And Lily's complete inability to do anything but scream, beg for mercy, and barricade the room also made *her* look like an idiot, but that's another story.)

The only things that I can think of that we're supposed to like about James are as follows:

1. He was a great Quidditch player.
2. He was presumably nice enough to befriend Remus despite Remus being a werewolf (though we see in "The Prince's Tale" that James didn't care very much about possibly revealing Remus' secret).
3. He's Harry's dad.
4. He's a Gryffindor.
5. He was Head Boy.
6. He's the one that Saint Lily supposedly "reformed" and chose as her husband (despite there being no evidence aside from Remus' and Sirius' word that he was anything other than the cruel and arrogant bully that we saw in OotP and DH).
7. He was clever enough to invent the Marauders' Map and become an Animagus along with his friends.

[oryx_leucoryx]

8. He was a member of the Order.
9. Together with Lily he defied Voldemort 3 times (how?)
10. His parents took Sirius in when the latter ran away from home.
11. He never used the word 'Mudblood'. Couldn't even bring himself to say it when talking about other people saying it.
12. He hated the 'Dark Arts' whatever those are.

Not using the word Mudblood

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

Hey! We don't know that one!

What he actually SAID was, "I'd never call you [Lily] a--you-know-what."

Not that he didn't regularly use such a term of people he didn't like, such as Slytherins.

That he wouldn't use it directly to someone whose pants he was trying to get into, and that he wouldn't use a term which denotatively referred to a group of which that person was a member, as an insult in her hearing.

For anything we can know from SWM, James was using "Mudblood" as the insult-of-choice for every non-relative he harassed, outside Lily's august presence.

Re: Not using the word Mudblood

[oryx_leucoryx]

So you are saying he may have been no different from Severus in this regard (at least until Severus was provoked to the extreme).

IOIAGDI

[urbanman1984.livejournal.com]

You are forgetting that it would be Okay if he did, bearing in mind that he was sorted into Gryffindor. Since Snape was not one of the elect, he was wrong to do so, but James could do no wrong.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Together with Lily he defied Voldemort 3 times (how?)

We should make up a list of totally dumb reasons.

They defied Voldemort by not attending his super awesome surprise birthday party.

They defied Voldemort by giving Dumbledore a totally awesome coupon to bath and body works and Voldie only got a coupon to Sports Emporium.

Lily defied Voldie by wearing a ugly shade of purple that he hated.

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

James and Lily insisted on wearing white past the beginning of September.

James and Lily were disco/Top 40 devotees, while Voldemort was nothing but New Wave/Punk.

James and Lily snowboarded while Voldie only skied.

Voldemort was a sushi afficianado, while James and Lily mockingly gorged on fish and chips in front of him.

James and Lily encamped themselves in Diagon Alley outside of Gringotts, with a large sign boldly proclaiming that they represented the 99 percent majority and that Voldemort belonged to the one percent minority trying to rule everyone else.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

I'll give him credit for becoming an Animagus, but how much of that map did the Marauders actually invent and how much of it did they just copy from somewhere else?

[sunnyskywalker]

Good question. We never see anything else like the map, but we do have other examples of tracking magic: mainly, the Hogwarts Quill knows who all the magical children are (and presumably where they are, so the Ministry can send a representative to the Muggleborns). The Trace only monitors a given area for magic, but that might be related somehow too. Magical owls seem to be able to find people even if the person sending them doesn't know the destination. Could those spells have been some of the ones they adapted to make the Map?

[oryx_leucoryx]

There is also Molly's clock that knows where specific people are.