death to capslock

Thank you very much! I always assumed that the Lestranges were never suspected, or if someone did hint then the Ministry's attitude would have been something like Surely not? A girl from a good family like that? Her father was a Black you know! But now that I think about it this doesn't make sense, cause the whole Longbottom incident took place after Voldemort's fall, so they wouldn't have had their dark marks anymore(?) and the Ministry wouldn't have known that they were necessarily Death Eaters, even if they did torture the Longbottoms. I'm coming around to your second option, too.

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Thanks!! I can't find it in either book but I will check the lexicon :))

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Thanks for the reply! I read the part about the imeprius defence in GoF but it only says that Avery got off and the Lestranges are a married couple in Azkaban. And then, of course, we known that Lucius also used the imperius defence. But I'm still not sure that Bellatrix ever needed to. Mind you, I would like to see her blackmailing Crouch with his sons involvement *evil grin*

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danajsparks.livejournal.com

Well, it's possible that the Ministry only learned that the attackers were Death Eaters because the responding aurors heard Bellatrix screaming, "Where is the Dark Lord?!" when they arrived at the scene, or because one of the culprits revealed that they were trying to restore Voldemort during his or her interrogation. So you could be right that nobody suspected the Lestranges before then.

OTOH, it's hard to believe that there hadn't at least been some speculation about Bellatrix and the Lestrange boys. Bellatrix's cousin, Sirius, was "known" to be a DE, and her sister, Narcissa, was married to a suspected one, so the Blacks probably weren't still automatically considered to be a "good family" by the end of 1981.

I also find it rather likely that some other DE, such as Malfoy or Avery, said something about the Lestranges as part of his efforts to escape his own punishment.

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This is something Sirius says in 'Padfoot Returns'. He says Barty was caught with people who had previously talked their way out of Azkaban. The Lestranges are not mentioned by name in that sentence, so it doesn't stand out.

This is from memory, but I think the build-up goes like this:

- Sirius discusses Crouch Sr's policy and his downfall when his son was arrested for being part of a plot to bring Voldemort back, caught with people who had 'talked their way out of Azkaban' (ch 27) - note that Sirius had doubts about Barty's guilt, as far as Sirius knew, Barty may have been just hanging out with the wrong crowd.
- Sirius mentions Severus' 'gang of Slytherins' including the Lestranges, a married couple who are in Azkaban. (ch 27)
- Harry sees the sentencing of the foursome in the Pensieve. (The accused are not referred to by name in the part Harry sees, but the crime is mentioned in detail) (ch 30)
- In the circle Tom praises the Lestranges for going to Azkaban for him (ch 33)

And of course only in OOTP we are given the 3 full names of the conspirators and learn Bella was Sirius' cousin (and later, when we got the family tree we learned Barty was his 2nd cousin once removed).

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We don't know what is meant by 'talked their way out of Azkaban'. It could be claiming Imperius, it could be blackmail (telling Crouch that if he kept them arrested someone might spill the beans on his son).

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Good points! Lucius may have wanted Bella locked up for fear of what she might do.

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Thanks! But that's just it, he doesn't say that.

“Snape knew more curses when he ar¬rived at school than half the kids in seventh year, and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters.”
Sirius held up his fingers and began ticking off names.
“Rosier and Wilkes — they were both killed by Aurors the year before Voldemort fell. The Lestranges — they’re a married couple — they’re in Azkaban. Avery — from what I’ve heard he wormed his way out of trouble by saying he’d been acting under the Imperius Curse — he’s still at large. But as far as I know, Snape was never even accused of being a Death Eater — not that that means much. Plenty of them were never caught. And Snape’s certainly clever and cunning enough to keep himself out of trouble.”

He just says that they all turned out to be DEs. I don't know. And I never understood why Sirius didn't say that Bella was his cousin in GoF.

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The part about getting out of Azkaban is a couple of pages before that, IIRC, when Sirius is discussing Crouch's policies and his son's arrest. The Lestranges are not mentioned by name but as those Barty was caught with. I'll look up the exact quote tonight (I have a long day today, it will take a while).

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Thank you so much! I found it two pages up, saves you the trouble :)

“Crouch’s own son was caught with a group of Death Eaters who’d managed to talk their way out of Azkaban. Apparently they were trying to find Voldemort and return him to power.”

I completely missed it, because they weren't named.

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And I never understood why Sirius didn't say that Bella was his cousin in GoF.

I think Rowling only worked out Sirius' background in detail when she was writing OOTP and needed a reason for him to be extra-depressed about being stuck at home. She may have had the general idea, but details like Walburga's portrait and all the other family members (Phineas, Regulus, the three sisters nee Black) came later. Notice that in GOF there were only 2 Lestranges. In OOTP the 4th conspirator is randomly made into a third Lestrange. (Before OOTP there were theories about his identity and why Voldie made no mention of him in the circle.)

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From a Doylist POV you're probably right, but I like to play with this from the Watsonian POV. I think Sirius must have learned (the hard way) from his first days at Hogwarts that it's not a good idea to tell or remind other Gryffindors of his family.

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Yes, I guess he probably didn't want to have to explain to harry why most of his family were Death Eaters either. I mean, he didn't mention that Lucius was married to another of his cousins. But if Rowling really didn't know it until the fifth book then I'm furious with her. The Black family backstory is so tragic and one of my favourite things about the books. But with every day it looks more like the characters who aren't Harry or Dumby don't really matter to her.

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Sirius believed Barty may have only accidentally been with the Lestranges. We also know the identification of the attackers was based on the Longbottoms' testimony (according to Dumbles) and thus there was room for doubt, at least with regarding to Barty. So no, they were not caught on the scene of crime. For some reason the attackers did not kill the victims once they were done with them, left, and got caught later based on the victims' statement.

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Another indication that Rowling didn't think this through? Cause that's a pretty stupid thing to do and that was before any of the Lestranges' stupid actions could be blamed on Azkaban induced madness, so why would they do it? Oh well, maybe they were just over confident...

Edited Date: 2012-06-19 03:07 pm (UTC)

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Sirus also wanted nothing to do with his family.

I had friends who were related who never mentioned they were related. I had known both a them quite a while when I found out. When they both were at the same party they stayed in separate areas, never spoke or acknowledged each other in any way. I never got the whole story, but there was a rift in the family

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I personally see Sirius' absence of mentioning his relatives as among the crowd Snape hung around as his not wishing to put himself in a bad light with Harry. It's truly a very hypocritical comment from Sirius which 'I' see as rather typical of his personality. He paints Snape in a bad light for being with these people, but doesn't bother to mention that they are family.

We never even get to find out whether this 'gang' were Snape's actual 'friends' or the Slug Club. Were they supposed to be hanging together at Hogwarts or after they all finished school? After all, Bella wasn't at school at the same time as Snape - but there isn't any indication that Sirius actually saw much of Snape after Hogwarts either.

It reminds me heavily of how later in bk5, Sirius accuses EVERYONE in his family of having been dark. And yet, several people are blasted off the tree - specifically for reasons that would been seen as muggle-supportive. Are we then to believe that everyone other than Sirius (including the likes of Andromeda and the Weasleys) are 'dark'? No - it is part of Sirius' character to hyperbolize.

What is stranger still is that there is a Potter on that family tree and Sirius fails to point him out to Harry. I personally do not see this particular Potter as Harry's grandfather - perhaps more of a grand-uncle? But the implication from Sirius would mean that this Potter was also 'dark'. Personally, I think he might have been. It's more interesting that way and conforms to one of my theories that one of the 'hints' in the books points to the historical 'Hell Club' as they are sometimes called by others, but which called themselves Knights of West Wycombe (but which reformed on Walpugis eve). One of the founding members was a Potter, but he actually published a 'book' with a Wilkes if I recall correctly.

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I neglected to mention that while Sirius' is speaking of the 'gang of Slytherins', he doesn't remind Harry that he was also a friend of someone who turned out to be a Death Eater. Even tho' Harry knows about Peter, Sirius certainly wasn't reminding Harry that being friends with someone who became a DE doesn't automatically mean YOU became one. He in fact implies the opposite.

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Oops! typo - that should be Hellfire Club.

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I think in some ways Sirius is protesting too much about his family. The dialog in The Prince's Tale implies that James reaction to Severus' intent to be Sorted into Slytherin was the first time Sirius realized anyone thought being a Slytherin was a bad thing. Sirius was not making a huge moral decision to go with the more 'liberal' faction of wizards against his family's values, he was choosing his new cool friend, and since this friend hated the group Sirius' family identified with Sirius was going to adopt his friend's views.

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I agree! I also believe that even Sirius' parents didn't mind the few 'white' sheep (like the Weasleys) until after Sirius had run off. Otherwise just how would Sirius have any idea the Weasleys were even ON the tree IF they had been blasted off before he was born?

Note that he wasn't even aware whether Tonks was on the tree or not as he didn't know whether her mother had been blasted or not. That means that Andromeda's marriage to Ted did not lead to the immediate blasting off the tree. Or at least, not one that the boys were made to watch.

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Otherwise just how would Sirius have any idea the Weasleys were even ON the tree IF they had been blasted off before he was born?

Well, there would be a burn mark, and perhaps one day Sirius could have asked around what the mark represented, or perhaps when he met Molly's brothers they chatted about family ties and he realized the brothers' brother-in-law was his relative via a disowned family line.

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But they would be Sirius' relation to the Prewitts - and that connection is still there on the tree. After all, Molly's brothers were not Weasleys and Arthur & Molly were not Order members in the first war. Yes - they MIGHT have mentioned Molly's family, But that requires a level of trust that I'm not sure is shown.

Of course, in truth, looking at how silly the Order members could be about protecting themselves (Lily's letter, the Order photo), you are correct that the brothers just might have discussed their family at meetings, despite the apparent fact that there was a traitor among them. Perhaps, before it became obvious?

I will say that Sirius knew exactly where to find that blast mark, very quickly. And that since he was not sure Andromeda was blasted or not, I still tend to think all the marks came from a fit of temper of Walburga's upon Sirius' running away to the Potter's.

However, I will also say, that the Wizarding World in general does not seem to discuss family interconnections, perhaps because everyone IS related somehow. Or, Perhaps it just seems that way because the only appropriate connections to be made would have been by Sirius who avoids it. Tough choice there for deciding. It is still odd that he doesn't discuss his connections to the Potters with Harry (nor with James when they meet on that first train), but would with the Prewitt twins. But, it IS possible, despite Sirius' general tendency to not discuss his family.

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I will say that Sirius knew exactly where to find that blast mark, very quickly. And that since he was not sure Andromeda was blasted or not, I still tend to think all the marks came from a fit of temper of Walburga's upon Sirius' running away to the Potter's.

That would cover Sirius, and Andromeda, maybe. Alphard was blasted off a bit later becaue Sirius was 17 when he got the money (not that it mattered - he wasn't living at home in any case). So you are saying the Black who married Septimus Weasley, Marius Black the squib and Phineas Nigelus' sister were also blasted off while Sirius was no longer living at home?

However, I will also say, that the Wizarding World in general does not seem to discuss family interconnections, perhaps because everyone IS related somehow. Or, Perhaps it just seems that way because the only appropriate connections to be made would have been by Sirius who avoids it.

We hear very little about the Weasleys too.

Back to your speculations about Charlus Potter: whoever he was, the one son he had (and any grandchildren) must have been dead by 1981 for Minerva to accept that the Dursleys were Harry's only relatives.

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True - but then a great many people on that tree died relatively young. The 'one son' could have been born in 1940 and may or may not have had any children. May not even have married. My main problem with Charlus as Harry's grandfather is that it doesn't fit what JKR said about James' parents dying at a relatively 'old age' from disease. IF she had them die in the war, then I would agree that they could be James' parents. And wouldn't that play havoc with Sirius' claim that everyone in his family was 'dark'. Harry would have been quite put out about that.

However, IF they were Harry's grandparents, then Harry had plenty of relatives. They just might not have been people wanted Harry to live among (Malfoys?). But, then the Weasleys, the Longbottoms and the Crouches would also have been considered relatives.

I just cannot see James and Sirius as not having any idea they were related if they were that closely so - having a grandparent who were siblings. Add another layer or two of cousins 4th? 5th? and I can see it easier. Personally, I think Sirius just never mentioned Charlus because then he would either have to tell Harry that Harry had 'dark' relatives or admit that not all of his own (Sirius') relatives were actually 'dark'

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Sirius reminds me of that family member (and don't all families have at least one?) who has to be a "rebel"

Whatever his parents want he would do the opposite. I don't think he gave a lot of thought to what it meant to be on the "light side", only that he was going against his "dark" family.

Like the muggle girl posters - they were there to annoy his parents.

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terri-testing.livejournal.com

Actually, I wrote a fiction in which Dumbledore asks Phineas on 11-1-1981 to account for Sirius having defected to Voldemort and betrayed his best friend, and what the Blacks thought was:

Sirius joined the Order because he thought that's what his parents would hate most.

But they thought he was sincere, that he sincerely repudiated Voldemort.

So when they realized Regulus has become a DE, repudiated that allegiance, and been killed for it, they sent a message to Sisius saying Regulus had ended on his side, and they too now hated Voldemort. Thinking that would make him willing to reconcile with the family.

Instead, they think now, it made him change sides.

Anything to annoy Walpurga, even betraying his friend.

And they think him capable of that because they knew (and so did Dumbledore, Remus, and everyone else left who knew Sirius well) that he'd betrayed Remus, another supposed best friend, when he was sixteen, in order to "get" a schoolboy rival. The "prank" endangered Remus as well as Severus. What Harry blasted Snape for doing at the end of POA, exposing Remus and forcing him out of Hogwarts, was the LEAST of what Sirius exposed his supposed good friend to when he set Severus up.

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The "prank" endangered Remus

I really got annoyed that Remus seemed to have no problem with Sirius after the prank. Remus should have been furious. If Hagrid was expelled for releasing the monster believe to have killed a student, what would have happen to Remus who would have been the monster to kill a student? If James hadn't acted in time Remus life could have been over or ruined.

Perhaps that is way Remus believed Sirius was responsible for the Potters deaths. Remus knew that Sirius could have easily been responsible for his death.

We never see Sirius apologizing to Remus or showing any concern for the danger he placed Remus in.

Do you have a link to the story?

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We never see Sirius apologizing to Remus or showing any concern for the danger he placed Remus in.

We meet them in 93/94; the 'prank' happened in 75/76. If Sirius apologized, he'd done that in the past. There's no reason to repeat that. It's settled between the two. To be honest that's between the two friends and nothing they have to explain to Harry.

The 'Sirius found it amusing...' explanation comes from Lupin. Sirius himself doesn't confirm it and stays rather vague about his reasons.
I've been writing fics from Sirius POV for nearly two years now and of course I had to come up with some more complex motivations. I'm writing with a partner who writes the Severus' parts. In the beginning of our fic (post-war AU) she didn't like Sirius at all, she has changed her mind. Basically I'm doing the same with Sirius as we here generally do with Severus. I give him the benefit of doubt and work on the premise that he's a good natured person deep inside and makes his mistakes for good reasons.
In short Severus' spying on the Marauders meant that they couldn't risk to keep Remus company. Remus wouldn't let them. He said he was suffering severely during his transformation at this time and only the company of his friends made it bearable. Sirius wanted to scare Severus to stop him from spying. This is a reason Remus would certainly accept as good intention. The flaw in the plan - BTW Severus made the same mistake; he knew or at least expected to find find a werewolf at the end of the tunnel - was that Sirius didn't expect Lupin to be able to get out.
"It was my trust in Dumbledore's magic that nearly got you killed."
Added irony the Marauders only got the idea for their night trips after that, because up to that night it didn't occur to them that Lupinwolf could leave.

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Similarly, Severus knew the marauders were safe in the presence of what he suspected of being a werewolf. He may have thought that was because of Dumbles' design of the protection (perhaps the werewolf was caged or chained) rather than a special ability of the marauders.

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Like I've said above they both made the same mistake. A cage or chains weren't even necessary. Dumbledore could have used a magic barrier e.g. a "werewolf line" similar to the age line in GoF; something the Marauders wouldn't have noticed but taken its existence for granted.

My main problem for the purpose of the fic was to find an explanation why Sirius never seems to have regretted the incident and still thinks 17 years later Severus deserved it. I took my inspiration for that from arguments of Snape haters/Marauder fans. They question Severus' intention to enter the tunnel. Though he didn't know for sure, he at least expected to find a werewolf at the end of the tunnel, so why did he follow Sirius' taunt and what did he want to do?
If their fans can believe that Severus wanted to seriously harm Lupin, I can imagine the Marauder themselves to believe it too.
That actually would make the whole situation worse. From their POV it's a logical conclusion and one which seems to be confirmed by Dumbledore's way to handle the matter. For all we know Sirius' punishment for the 'prank' wasn't very severe. He probably only got a few detentions for nearly exposing Lupin. If Dumbledore believed that Severus was an innocent victim, Sirius should have been expelled. He is not, so Dumbledore believes that Severus tried to curse or even kill Lupin.

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Of course Dumbles had to keep the whole thing quiet because he did not want the Ministry and the parents of other students to find out that he was harboring a werewolf at the school (well the werewolf was just outside school grounds during his transformation but I doubt that would convince anyone who cared), so that would be one reason not to expel Sirius. Terri has a fic where Remus kills Severus and Dumbles still covers it all up (but unfortunately for him Severus returns as a ghost).

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That's what we as readers know. The Marauders are Gryffindors. They admire Dumbledore and think he's the greatest headmaster Hogwarts has ever seen. They keep their little secrets from him which they think are harmless, but that doesn't mean they don't respect Dumbles. It's much easier to believe "the Dark snake" hashad bad intentions than believing that "the epitome of goodness", "the greatest sorcerer of their times" treated a student unfairly to save his own neck.

The parents of other students? Even James - he's the one who brings up the accusation against Severus to comfort Sirius who is really sorry and scared to death that his mother will arrive in the morning to take him home - points out that Dumbledore might have been in trouble to explain it to their parents. Whatever problems Walpurga and Orion had with Sirius he's their eldest son and he's still living at home at the time. They are rich influential Purebloods and I doubt they taken it quietly that their son could be expelled, because Dumbledore kept a 'Halfbreed' in school. How far the tolerance of the Potters would have gone under the circumstances is debatable. They might have been in favour of giving young werewolves a chance, but during full moon said werewolf should have been kept safe and far away from their little darling son.
Anyway those considerations would have been secondary, because

"Dumbledore is good and fair and would never do anything morally questionable"

. It's same the cult dogma by which he later controls the minds of the Order members.

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I think Dumbledore would have been in trouble explaining it not only to the parents, but to the school governors and the Ministry. I'm not sure if they necessarily knew that Dumbledore had a werewolf in school. There is the werewolf registry, of course, but perhaps the Ministry never thought to compare it to the list of students attending Hogwarts. Because in PoA it sounds very much like Lupin's condition is something that only a few people know about. But, assuming that the governors and the Ministry didn't know Dumbledore would have had to cover the whole thing up or he might have lost his position as Headmaster. Or not? Is there anything in canon about whether the Ministry knew that Lupin was a werewolf?

That co-written fic sounds brilliant btw! Could I have a link? :)

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We can be certain Lucius didn't know or he'd be using that against Dumbles. After all he already tried to oust him the previous year and was going after Hagrid via Buckbeak in POA. Now theoretically it is possible that the Ministry and governors in the 1970s knew but left no record for the future so that by the time Lucius became governor he never found out. However given what we see of Albus' way of handling information I am inclined to believe he was the one who held the story.

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"It was my trust in Dumbledore's magic that nearly got you killed."
Added irony the Marauders only got the idea for their night trips after that, because up to that night it didn't occur to them that Lupinwolf could leave.

The Jame's and Sirius' reaction was then - Cool! Lets do it again. Which is the kind of dangerous, thrill seeking behavior often seen in teenage boys.

However as headmaster Dumbledore is responsible for the safety of all the students. I've wondered - after the "prank" did Dumbledore do anything to increase the safeguards around Remus? Did he instal any kind of monitoring? Somehow i doubt it. Under your theory he did nothing to increase security.

Dumbledore is the person who is most responsible for what happened. A werewolf is no more dangerous than any other wizarding child most of the time. With the proper percautions a werewolf should have been safe to have a student. Dumbledore came up with his "brilliant plan". It never entered his mind that his plan would be flawed. And when there was a close call - well no one was really hurt, obviously there was no need to make any changes. Just silence the idiots who interfered.

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I've wondered - after the "prank" did Dumbledore do anything to increase the safeguards around Remus?

We know he didn't because in SWM, which happened after the werewolf debacle, James reminds Peter that he runs with a werewolf each month, how could he make a mistake on the relevant OWL question - it was stated in present tense.

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Could I have a link?

For the rough version IJ (http://sionna-raven.insanejournal.com/) or a slightly edited version on AO3 (http://archiveofourown.org/works/216898) .
Events directly 'After the Prank' (http://archiveofourown.org/works/213634) .

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I agree with Oryx. If Dumbledore did anything to increase security, it didn't work. In the fic I have him strengthen the door between the tunnel and the Shrieking Shack. Remus breaks the old one going mad at the smell of human prey. After that night he can't leave without the help of his friends.

I think there must have been something like a door to block the way, because the willow couldn't keep a raging werewolf in. He simply wouldn't care about the injuries by the branches in his desire to hunt.

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The Jame's and Sirius' reaction was then - Cool! Lets do it again. Which is the kind of dangerous, thrill seeking behavior often seen in teenage boys.

It's more like James could handle a very dangeous situation on his own. The two of them together should have no problems to control the werewolf.
Another mistake I think Sirius - following Padfoot's instincts - makes is that he thinks of Lupinwolf as a normal canine, an animal like himself rather than a Dark creature. Real wolves usually act submissive to large dogs and avoid contact with men. Without other humans around Lupinwolf probably does too.

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