Filling some gaps about the first war: Appendix B

[oryx_leucoryx]

What do we know about the Order of the Phoenix in the first war? Our main source for the membership is the photograph that Alastor Moody showed Harry. The front row has: Albus Dumbledore, Alastor Moody, Dedealus Diggle, Marlene McKinnon, Frank and Alice Longbottom, Emmeline Vance, Remus Lupin and Benjy Fenwick. Behind them are Edgar Bones, Sturgis Podmore, Caradoc Dearborn, Rubeus Hagrid, Elphias Doge and Gideon Prewett (and presumably also Fabian Prewett?). In the back are Aberforth Dumbledore, Dorcas Meadows, Sirius Black, James Potter, Peter Pettigrew and Lily Potter.

I don't really know in which order Frank and Alice were positioned because Moody refers to them as a single unit. Similarly, James and Lily's positions may have been reversed, but I assume Sirius would prefer to stand by James. While Frank and Alice, Lily and James, are mentioned explicitly, we are told about Marlene: 'That's Marlene McKinnon, she was killed two weeks after this was taken, they got her whole family.' And of Edgar Bones: 'That's Edgar Bones... brother of Amelia Bones, they got him and his family too, he was a great wizard'. While family members died with Marlene and Edgar, it appears said relatives were not in fact in the photo, and probably weren't Order members themselves. Similarly, when Moody says, 'Gideon Prewett, it took five Death Eaters to kill him and his brother Fabian', it looks like he was pointing at Gideon. Fabian may have not been in the photo, or perhaps he was standing behind Gideon, and Moody's narration never got to his position because his main purpose was to show Harry his parents.

We know at least two Order members not mentioned by Moody: Arabella Figg and Mundungus Fletcher, both mentioned by Albus in GOF as part of the 'old crowd'. It is possible Arabella was not present, as a squib she may have had difficulties arriving at Order gatherings. Or perhaps the two were also standing in the back.

How many people could have been hidden? Well, I'm pretty sure the third row was the last one, or Aberforth would have been standing even farther back behind his brother. The first row has 9 people, the second 6 (or 7, if you think Fabian is there next to Gideon), but one of them is Hagrid, who easily takes up the space of 3-4 humans. We know of 6 people in the third row. There is room for a few additional people there, which may include Arabella Figg, Mundungus Fletcher and Fabian Prewett.

If there is anyone else there, those would be either ones who did not survive to the reforming of the Order in 1995, or people who became part of the 2nd Order. Members of the 2nd Order not mentioned so far are: Minerva McGonagall, Severus Snape, members of the Weasley family, Kingsley Shacklebolt, Nymphadora Tonks and Hestia Jones. Of these we know Severus was not part of the original Order (even when he turned he was not openly acting as Albus' agent, contributing to Sirius' confusion in POA about Severus' connection to events of 1993-4), we are told Kingsley and Tonks were new recruits (and Tonks, like Bill and Charlie, was still a child in 1981). When Albus starts gathering his forces in the hospital wing in GOF, he needs to ask Molly "...am I right in thinking that I can count on you and Arthur?", whereas he orders Sirius without questions or invitations. So I don't think the Weasleys were directly under his authority as part of the Order before. Leaving the possibilities of Minerva and Hestia. The latter is described as having pink cheeks, which fans usually take as implying a young age. Even if she was older than Tonks, she may have been too young to have been part of the first Order. But Minerva is a likely candidate. Thus in total the number of named memebers of the first Order at the time the photograph was taken is somewhere between 23 and 26.

When and under what circumstances was the photograph taken? Moody tells Harry that the McKinnon family was killed two weeks later, and according to her letter, Lily believed Peter had been mourning the McKinnons when he visited the weekend before Harry's birthday. This places the taking of the photo most probably in early July 1981. A curious detail is that Moody says (in 1995!) that this was the only time he ever met Aberforth. After all those years that the Order had been active. So what was so special about that particular time? Well, according to Rita Skeeter, Albus was approaching his eighteenth birthday when he left Hogwarts with a plan of touring the world with Elphias Doge. And according to the 'Wizard of the Month' card Rowling published shortly after DH, he was born in 1881. (Molly's great-aunt Muriel, who was a girl at the time of Ariana's funeral, was born around 1890.) So Albus must have turned 100 sometime in the summer of 1981. A celebration of such a historical event was something even Aberforth could not excuse himself from, though 'we've had precious little to celebrate for eleven years'. (Just as 16 years later he attended Albus' funeral, where he met Moody again.)

Going with 25 members (with Fabian and Minerva in the first Order, but without Hestia) there were 7 women and 18 men.

Ages of Order members: Lily and the Marauders were born between September 1959 and August 1960 (attended Hogwarts from September 1971 and June 1978). Hagrid was born in December 1928, attended Hogwarts from September 1940 to June 1943 (would have attended until June 1947 if he hadn't been expelled). Albus Dumbledore was born in the summer of 1881, Elphias Doge was in his year, the two attended Hogwarts from September 1892 to June 1899. Aberforth Dumbledore was probably born in the autumn of 1883, attended Hogwarts from 1895 (I do not know if he stayed for NEWTs, but he probably sat for OWLs in June 1900).

If Minerva was an Order member, and if we accept the Pottermore timeline, then she was born in October 1935 and attended Hogwarts from September 1947 until June 1954, came back to teach in December 1956.

Sturgis Podmore was 38 in September 1995. This places his birth around 1956-7 and his Hogwarts years as 1968-1975.

Frank Longbottom must have been at least a year older than the Marauders, such that he had time to complete his Auror training enough time before the end of the war to gain him his reputation as successful captor (or killer) of suspected DEs. He may have been a few years older yet. His grandmother was born in 1915, so he was unlikely to have been born before 1953. If we assume Augusta Longbottom was in Minerva's year (based on Minerva's familiarity with Augusta's grades) then the likely earliest birth date for Frank becomes 1954, the same year as Lucius Malfoy. With the early scenario, Frank left Hogwarts in 1972 and completed Auror training in the summer of 1975.

Alice Longbottom (maiden name unknown) must have also been at least a year older than the Marauders in order to allow her to have completed her training prior to Neville's birth. If we accept Dumbles' claim that both Longbottoms had up-close and personal encounters with Voldemort (making them candidates for parents of Prophecy boy) this might require her to have been at least a bit older (though we don't have to assume said encounters happened in their capacity as fully trained Aurors rather than their capacity as Dumbles' followers). We don't have to assume both Longbottoms were the same age - their relationship needn't have started while at school, they could have met at the Aurors' Office, perhaps while the younger one was a trainee.

Gideon and Fabian Prewett - Their sister Molly was probably born no later than (October) 1951, and probably not many years earlier, considering she and Arthur eloped. We do not know the birth order in this family, nor whether any of the siblings were twins so at most I can guess that Gideon and Fabian were likely born in the mid-to-late 1940s or early-to-mid 1950s.

Alastor Moody - was still an active Auror in 1981, and probably some years later, since he continued to suffer injuries, including the loss of his eye. Seems to have become a dedicated trainer of new Aurors at some point, retired in the summer of 1994. We have no idea what the typical retirement age if for Aurors, or even for Ministry workers in general. I'm going to guess he was born in the 1920s (or late 1910s) and attended Hogwarts in the 1930s. I am inclined to think he left school before Tom arrived, or at least before Tom made much of an impression outside of Slytherin House.

Edgar Bones and Marlene McKinnon were killed with their entire respective families. Now, that might mean Marlene, her parents and her cousins who were visiting, but most likely refers to a couple and their children. We do not know the ages of the children, and considering that the McKinnons were killed in July we cannot even know if the children were of school age, younger, or even adult children who came over for a family gathering. For Edgar Bones we have additional information - his brother has a daughter (Susan) in Harry's year and his sister (Amelia) rose to the position of DMLE head in the 1990s (probably in 1990, when Fudge became Minister) and was described in 1996 by the Muggle Prime Minister as a middle-aged woman. This places the birth dates of the Bones siblings in the 1940s-1950s.

Arabella Figg is gray-haired in 1995 and was always perceived by Harry as old, so I'd place her birth somewhere in the first 2 decades of the 20th century. Mundungus Fletcher OTOH has ginger hair, so he isn't very old, but we don't really know much about his age.

There is too little information to date Dedalus Diggle, Emmeline Vance, Benjy Fenwick, Caradoc Dearborn or Dorcas Meadows.

Of the 17 magical Order members for whom we have age information 3 are very old, 3 were born in the 1920s-1930s, and the remaining 11 were born in the mid 1940s or later, which means they spent most or all their time at Hogwarts with Albus as headmaster. I would not be surprised if this is the case for the Order members of unknown age - that Albus' recruiting was focused on the younger generation.

Blood-status: Arabella Figg was a Squib. Lily Potter was Muggle-born. James Potter, Sirius Black, the Longbottoms and the Prewett brothers were purebloods, mostly from old families (we don't know how long Alice's wizarding line was). Remus Lupin and Mundungus Fletcher, and now Minerva McGonagall are half-bloods (Remus and Minerva literal ones, it isn't clear what kind of half-blood Mundungus is.) The Dumbledore brothers are technical half-bloods. Peter Pettigrew's mother was probably a witch, but we don't know about the rest of his family. Edgar Bones has magical siblings. Elphias Doge must have been raised in a magical family to be able to contract dragon-pox before arriving at Hogwarts. Hagrid, of course, is the son of a wizard (blood status unknown) and a giantess. Dedalus Diggle probably had a wizarding upbringing, since he considers driving unusual and perplexing. In OOTP Sturgis Podmore appears to be unfamiliar with microwave ovens, but I don't think that means much, as even if he was raised in the Muggle world this technology only became widespread in his adulthood. It is very hard to tell what Alastor Moody's background was, nor do I see any hints about the 5 remaining first Order members. While quite a few Order members had Muggle relatives, other than Lily we don't see signs any of them had a non-magical upbringing. However if anyone wants to write a few more Muggle-born Order members there is a short list of candidates.

House: We know the Marauders, Lily, Hagrid and Minerva were in Gryffindor. Gideon and Fabian Prewett were the brothers of a Gryffindor. Augusta's pressure on Neville to measure up to his father, a pressure that only really lets off in DH when Neville becomes outright rebellious suggests Frank was in Gryffindor too. Edgar Bones is the only Order member (other than Sirius) with known family connections in a House other than Gryffindor - he has a niece in Hufflepuff. There is a canon rumor that Albus Dumbledore had been in Gryffindor, but many readers here have doubts about the veracity of said rumor.

There are several characters who come across as Gryffindors in their behavior: Dedalus Diggle (shooting stars in celebration of the victory with no concern for discovery by Muggles), Alastor Moody (a non-Gryffindor would have planned for participants in the seven-Potters scheme to disapparate upon attack to a designated spot), Aberforth Dumbledore (very direct attitude). OTOH Mundungus Fletcher is the least likely to have been a Gryffindor. I don't think we have information to place the remaining 8 magical Order members.

13 of the members of the first Order went on to participate in the Order during the second war (Albus Dumbledore, Aberforth Dumbledore, Minerva McGonagall, Rubeus Hagrid, Alastor Moody, Arabella Figg, Mundungus Fletcher, Elphias Doge, Dedalus Diggle, Sturgis Podmore, Emmeline Vance, Sirius Black and Remus Lupin).
8 died: Marlene McKinnon, Gideon and Fabian Prewett, Edgar Bones, Benjy Fenwick, Dorcas Meadows, James and Lily Potter.
Caradoc Dearborn disappeared 6 months after the photo was taken, in January 1982. Was he killed by DEs in a post-war duel? Did he run away for some personal reason?
Peter Pettigrew hid as a rat and eventually went on to bring Voldemort back.
Alice and Frank Longbottom were tortured by DEs and ended up losing their minds.

What additional speculations can we make based on the photo? I am going to assume the positions of the people in the group were not entirely random, so we should be able to make educated speculations about their interactions. For instance, Albus is standing at one end of the front row with Alastor immediately next to him. Alastor must have been the second-in-command and the head of the general operations part of the Order just like he appears to be in the second war (running 2 rescue operations of Harry from 4PD and keeping the rota for watching the Department of Mysteries). Aberforth is standing at one end of the last row - guarding his brother's back from a distance. Sirius, James, Peter and Lily are in the back, but Remus is in the front, suggesting he was no longer welcome with the Potters. Was this because he was already suspected as a spy or was there some earlier break-up? In Lily's letter, which was sent some 3 weeks after the photo was taken he was not mentioned either.

Did the Longbottoms have any friends in the Order? They are standing between Marlene McKinnon and Emmeline Vance. Marlene could have been Alice's friend from school, or perhaps the two couples socialized together. Or Marlene, Emmeline and Alice may have been a group (did all three of them admire Frank yet manage not to break-up when he and Alice got together?). Alternatively, it is possible that the three years of training cost the Longbottoms their school days friendships and all their social ties were ones they formed with other Aurors. Of course once the Longbottoms' disability was revealed to be permanent any friends they may have had drifted away. (Does anyone think Moody slipped away from Arthur's room to visit Frank and Alice at the hospital?) I know fans like to see Lily and Alice as friends and they may have had a connection during their pregnancies and shortly after but I doubt it lasted. I don't think James liked the idea of Lily branching out socially.

What did Remus do once he was ousted of the Marauders? He is standing between Emmeline Vance and Benjy Fenwick. Did one (or both) of them become his mentor or partner for assignments? We don't see any sign of familiarity when Remus introduces her to Harry in OOTP, but then Tonks was already focused on him. Moody says of Benjy Fenwick that only bits of him were found. Are we sure he was killed by DEs? Is it possible he was with Remus on an assignment that due to unpredicted reasons extended into the full moon?

If Mundungus Fletcher was present when the photo was taken (and wasn't behind the camera) he must have been in the back row - near the Marauders and behind the Prewetts. The Marauders would have been natural partners for his 'business opportunities'. If the fanon perception of the Prewetts as forerunners of the twins is correct then so were they.


On one end of the middle row we have Edgar Bones and Sturgis Podmore. Edgar has family ties to Hufflepuff. Sturgis was a few years older than the Marauders (left school in 1975, a year before SWM). It is possible to imagine the two of them as friends from Hufflepuff, in the same year, who somehow got caught up in the Order, and did not fit in the Gryffindorish atmosphere of it. If one wants to write a critical insider view of the order that could be a way to do it. One may want to add Caradoc Dearborn to the same group.

One of the people in the back row is Dorcas Meadows. We don't know anything about her except that Moody believes Voldemort had killed her himself. Was she a young woman who perhaps was interested in Sirius? Was she a very old woman, a friend of Aberforth's? Or perhaps she was associated with Edgar and Sturgis in the row in front of her? Why would Voldemort bother to kill her personally at this stage of the war, and what made Moody believe Voldemort was her killer? Was it because no Dark Mark was set at the murder site? Or was this information Severus relayed? Did Voldemort kill her because that was when he turned the diary into a Horcrux (I think this was proposed by jodel)?

------------------------

Thus finally ends my series. My plan is to post a somewhat edited version of it on my journals (both live- and insane-) incorporating some of the reader comments (with attribution). Anyone is free to use any of it as basis for fic.

Comments

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

I think there are a few more questions that this photo brings up for me.

First is that Sirius apparently knew there was a spy in the Order for approximately a year before the Potters' deaths - in other words roughly since Halloween'80 - about 8 (or so) months previous to the point the photo is taken. There may have been more Order members before this pic that have since died or disappeared. There had to be some hint that there was a spy for the timing to be deduced and Order members being picked off would make it known that their secrets were being told.

Also, I question just why Lily appears to be the only female from her year. What happened to those 'friends' who told her to drop Sev? I tend to doubt she meant the Marauders at that point and I would be very upset if she did. Perhaps Marlene was one? But then why isn't it mentioned in the letter to Sirius? What ever happened to Mary McDonald? Unless JKRs idea of 'popular' meant only with the guys. Notice that Ginny is supposed to be 'popular' and yet her only apparent girlfriend is Luna. It just means she dates a lot.

Also not only why would Voldy kill Dorcas personally, but why would he come out of supposed hiding (according to Sirius in PoA) to do it? Unfortunately, that puts everything Sirius says under suspicion. We know to take his opinions of people's character with a grain of salt, but can we not count on Peter even having been a mole for a year? Is that called in question, too?

[oryx_leucoryx]

Lily's girl friends from school presumably did other things, whether that means working at the Ministry or at one of the shops. Not everyone joined the Order. It seems that joining the Order was based on an invitation from Dumbles (implied in interview). Also, people have proposed assorted reasons why Lily's friends left her once she started dating James.

As for Dorcas, I think it was jodel who proposed that was when Tom turned the diary into a Horcrux.

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

I can see that, however that doesn't mean it WAS when he did so. I was under the impression that JKR has said the horcrux in the diary was formed from Myrtle's murder (tho' I would normally consider her death to have been an accident). I admit I could be wrong about that as I cannot remember where I heard it. I think it was supposed to be in the same discussion when she said that Bertha's death was used to create a horcrux of Naigini. I remember being terribly disappointed that it hadn't been the murder of the Riddle Mansion's caretaker since he seemed to be a 'significant' death having been the one who saw young Tom on the grounds when the Riddles were AK'd.

However, we also do not have enough info on exactly how much of that DiaryMemory was possible only because Tom used his ripped soul piece to make it. Ut was the fact that the Diary could think for itself that apparently suggests it was dark magic. However mere memories are not dark (unless a pensieve is dark magic?) Was the diary was originally more like a pensieve and the memory only became more 'thinking' when it became a horcrux? Or was that the intention all along and so needed to be a horcrux from the very beginning. IF the latter then it would not make sense of using Dorcas. IF the Diary couldn't think for itself originally, then why make it at all back then? But then why would Voldy have kept a blank muggle diary all those years? And of course all of this is shaded by the question of whether or not Tom even knew about pensieves. We have no [roof that he did since he didn't use one to attempt to discover the entire prophecy from Snape.

As for Lily's girlfriends, what I meant was that I find it says something about exactly who was chosen for the Order. If her fellow gryffindor roommates were not suitable for Albus to ask, then it leads us to ask what reason did Albus have for not asking them, but asking the Marauders. It is somewhat similar I think to why only Ron and Hermione are involved - tho' not exactly since we have no idea whether or not Albus would have asked say Neville once he finished Hogwarts. However, ask too many people who don't join and you risk your secrecy. Keep the numbers you do ask incredibly limited and you have a very small group - possibly too small to be effective.

But for me it speaks to what qualities Albus was looking for when he invited people to join. What did he see that he liked in the Marauders that wasn't there in Lily's friends? Presumably it wasn't just bravery since her girlfriends were likely gryffs.

In other words I want to know what Albus saw in the Marauders that he was specifically looking for that made him ask them to join. Since Lily's girlfriends possibly were not asked, does that mean she was only considered because of her relationship with the Marauders?

I agree that Lily's friends may have left her once she started dating James. In fact I have suggested it to others relatively often. They seem to have been a relatively judgmental group. But if they didn't actually abandon Lily over her friendship with Snape, then it begs more questions.

Were they actually her friends at the time or was their friendship dependent upon her dropping Snape? IF they were her friends, then what does that say about James if her friends found it harder to accept her relationship with him than the friendship she had with Sev? Or was it Lily who dropped her friends when she got so involved with the Marauders? Fanon seems to believe that since the friends disliked Snape they automatically preferred James. But they may have found him abhorrent as well. We just do not know and so must consider it several ways I think.

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

It could be Lily's girlfriends were not invited to join the Order simply because they were girl friends. There are only five women out of over twenty members, and two of them are part of a couple. It's possible that neither Lily nor Alice would have been asked on her own.

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

True - the only single female we SEE invited was Tonks, who was invited by Arthur (not Albus). The others were part of the Order already.

It is possible that Hestia or Emmaline or Dorcas were invited on their own or perhaps their significant others who were invited to join first might have been killed before the photo was taken. Though I would say that it might be suggestive that Marlene is not joined by a spouse in the photo, since Voldy killed her whole family. That still doesn't mean she wasn't invited with a husband who has already died and Marlene's 'family' only means the children or her parents to whose house she has returned after her husband's death. But it is also possible that Marlene joined and her husband did not.

Truthfully, considering the times (late '70s early '80) I would find it surprising that Albus was inviting women to join at all. However, we are led to believe that the Wizarding World was not quite as behind in womens rights as the American muggle world that I was growing up in at that time. For that matter the UK wasn't either since they did elect a female Prime Minister around that time - as did JKRs wizarding world.

I tend to think they probably were single, but as I mentioned above Peter has been spying for Voldy on these folks for roughly 8 months. I'd be surprised if there weren't deaths before that photo. So it is a possibility.

By the way Oryx - I neglected to mention it previously - but I love your idea that this was possibly Albus' 100th birthday. That's a great piece of reasoning.

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

Theoretically the wizarding world could be much more egalitarian than the muggle world. Witches don't appear to be weaker magically than wizards the way women are weaker physically than men, and with wizarding lifespan, childbearing and childcare take up a relatively small part of witches' lives. But JKR didn't write it that way. The wizarding world is more deeply rooted in muggle culture than they like to admit.

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

Yes, but what I was referring to was the canon that had a woman elected Minister of Magic in 1980 (Millicent Bagnold). And obviously women were being accepted into the auror corps since Alice Longbottom was an auror. So I think that women were seen as a bit more equal there than what some of us who were entering the work field at that time experienced. Then again, not being from the UK, I have no idea how it was for 'muggle' women there at that time, but Margaret Thatcher was elected Prime Minister in '79. I do somewhat wonder just how having had queens might have affected the general opinion about women. Unfortunately this is not something I have ever looked into and so have no idea.

All that said Albus reached adulthood at a much different era and could easily have thought differently about women at that time.

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

I was thinking about the wizarding world in general, not your specific reference to feminism (or lack of same) in the Seventies and Eighties. I was a feminist back in those days too, and remember it well.

It just seems to me there ought to be a bigger difference—and a much more deeply-rooted one—between the two cultures. It should matter a lot that witches can't be beaten and raped by wizards, and that there really are no jobs or activities or roles that can't, obviously and undeniably, be handled just as well by a witch as a wizard. Instead we seem to have ordinary male-dominated culture with a few tokens like Minister Bagnold and Auror Alice.

Of course something like that would have required serious world-building, and that's something JKR doesn't do.

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

When I began asking about what it might say that Lily's girlfriends appear to be missing, I was more thinking about someone's recent comment (in the last few DTC's) that Albus was raising good Warriors not good civilians. I'm sorry I cannot remember who said it and cannot find it on a quick look-through. I believe they were speaking directly about the Trio.

But it does bring up the question of why the Marauders were allowed so much leeway in their bullying. It encourages ignoring empathetic feelings for others. And since the Marauders were not really penalized enough over the werewolf incident (seeing as how they apparently continued to release Moony) they were also not being encouraged to stop their recklessness.

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

It was terri-testing's reply to one of my comments on her story "(No) Difference". I was saying how infuriating it was that Albus takes delight in his Gryffindors' crimes rather than regretting the political necessity of allowing his favorites to run wild, while Snape wants to teach them civilized behavior but isn't allowed to. Terri said that Dumbledore doesn't want citizens but warriors. The difference is less a matter of morality than of self-control and the awareness of other people as human beings like oneself.

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I thought it was Terri, but didn't want to credit it until I figured out for sure. And no wonder I couldn't find it on DTC.

But yes, it does give us a reason for allowing the Marauders to run wild and also for why they and perhaps not other ex-students were invited. We do not know whether Fabian & Gideon were actually such 'pranksters', too altho' I think it is hinted at just by their initials. But it suggests that they might have been just as nasty as the Marauders could be, since we see Fred & George up to some questionable offenses as well.

And while I love fanfics that have Frank Longbottom as a voice of reason in Gryffindor, in truth the fact that Sirius said only Moody refused to use the unforgivables as an auror must raise questions about aurors Frank & Alice. Of course, this is Sirius talking and so it is probably exaggerated, therefore I can still hope for Neville that his parents were nice people. But considering Frank's mother is what my southern dad would have called a 'tough ole bird' I wouldn't count on Frank being sweetness and light.

We then have Mungdungus - not exactly an 'upstanding' citizen and I have to wonder about the criteria for Albus' choosing Order members.

[oryx_leucoryx]

I didn't take Sirius' meaning to be Moody was the absolutely only Auror who refused to use Unforgivables. Nor did Sirius say he never used them. According to Sirius Moody avoided killing if he could help it (whatever that means to someone who thought James was justified in continuing attacking Severus because otherwise James would have been taking Severus' attacks 'lying down') and brought people in alive if possible. But I take it that Moody stood out in having a high captured to killed suspect ratio. Which suggest Frank had a significantly lower ratio.

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

That might simply be a matter of skill: if Frank was less effective than Moody -- and Moody is generally portrayed as having been highly effective -- he might have had to resort to killing more often, regardless of any preference for bringing them in alive.

(Although then again, given that convicted Death Eaters would most likely be sent to go mad in Azkaban, maybe Frank just reckoned that killing them in combat was the merciful course of action. A clean, quick, honourable death, and all that.)

[oryx_leucoryx]

A clean, honorable death beats spending the rest of one's life in Azkaban, but we are speaking of *suspects*. A proper investigation might clear them and have them released into wizarding society again. (Of course this assumes an investigation was going to be made. If frank did not expect it, then ...)

[nx74defiant.livejournal.com]

witches can't be beaten and raped by wizards

I would think they could. If the wizard knows some nasty dark spells she doesn't. Or a simple Expelliarmus and a witch is in no better shape than a muggle.

In the books love potions are treated as a joke. But they would be the perfect date rape drug.

Its odd how JKR shows sexuality, it's are the witches how are the aggressors. It is the girls who are interested in the love potions. We see them being used by witches. No mention of a wizard using them to get the witch.

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

The difference is that there seems to be no overall pattern of wizards being stronger magically than witches, the way there's an overall pattern of men being stronger physically than women. People with stronger magic can violate people with weaker magic, but it's not a matter of most men being capable of dominating most women, so it doesn't contribute to and support the dominance of males in society as a whole. I've always been small and fragile, so I'm very much aware of this issue.

There does seem to be a pattern of people with stronger magic dominating society and being looked up to as leaders, even when strong magic itself is not needed for the specific position. Why should the Minister for Magic or the Headmaster of Hogwarts need to be able to cast especially strong spells? Those are administrative posts. One doesn't expect the Prime Minister of Britain to be able to beat up everyone he meets.

Regarding love potions: if JKR showed teenage wizards plotting to use love potions, it would be all too obvious that they are in fact rape drugs, which is not something you want in a kids' book. I don't think it's any better to have girls in a kids' book using rape drugs, but it tends to fly under the radar. JKR is not the only one to find the use of force by women on men to be humorous. Others have discussed this issue here of DTCL and have done an excellent job, so I won't continue, except to say it's ugly.

[nx74defiant.livejournal.com]

---a kids' book---

I hate the "kid's book" excuse.

Yes the first books are kid's books.

But the final two--

JKR stated the books would mature with Harry.

The last books she is going much darker and much more serious. Leaving behind kid territory. The last book is suppose to be this deep book about war and death.

So JKR is going for more the Young Adult category at the end. But she pulls her punches in places because she wants to keep the younger readers. And that is a problem. She needed to choose one or the other. Trying to do both didn't work. The final books are too dark for children, but the efforts to make it more child friendly weaken the story line.

It ends up luke-warm, neither hot or cold. Not really a child's book, not really young adult.

[dorea-ysleen.livejournal.com]

Come to think of, while it's true that a lot of the causes for women's position in the muggle world don't apply in the wizarding world, both worlds haven't been separated for all that long. Up until the the Statute of Secrecy was established, there seems to have been a lot more interaction, with the old families being part of the muggle aristocracy and so on. Witches and wizards may have hidden their magic, and important places like Hogwarts, Hogsmeade, and Diagon Alley, but a lot of people were apparently part of both worlds. That would explain why wizarding society isn't all that different from the muggle one. And with how important tradition is, it makes sense that in a lot of ways they haven't come as far as the muggle world where equality is concerned.

[oryx_leucoryx]

While childbearing takes only a small part of a witch's life, if she is expected to homeschool her kids she is out of the workforce for at least 11 years (I'd say 14 on average, for 2 kids who are 3 years apart, more with more children and/or greater age gaps). That would set most witches back in their careers to the point that high positions would be out of their reach. Amelia Bones apparently wasn't married.

OTOH if there had been a push from women who wanted careers, someone would have come up with a system for elementary schooling, even if it were optional.

[nx74defiant.livejournal.com]

And if the post on Wizarding families is right, what about a pureblood family worried about having Squibs?

Wouldn't a Witch from or married to a Wizard with a history of Squibs want to hide the fact she is pregnant? It would be hard to do that and hold a job outside the home.

[oryx_leucoryx]

I'm inclined to think that Moody would have mentioned dead spouses of people in the picture, and that if there were Order members who died before the photo was taken they were not directly related to anyone in the picture.

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

Similarly, look at Hogwarts staff to see if Albus might have been a closet misogynist. Most of the professors, we don't have any information to determine whether they had been hired initially by Albus or by one of his predecessors. But the pattern of those we KNOW Albus hired is not encouraging: of five Defense teachers, 2 Potions masters, 2 COMC teachers (one permanent, one only subbing), and 2 Divinations instructors, Albus hired 8 men (or males, anyhow) and only 2 women. And one of those two was as the substitute for an (incompetent) male.

So the four-to-one ratio we see in the Order photograph may be reflected by his Hogwarts hiring as well.

[sunnyskywalker]

For Hogwarts hiring, we also need to consider what the other job prospects in the ww are and the chances women have at them, to rule out the possibility that Hogwarts teacher is that crap job you only take if you have no other options and that women do usually have better options. Or the possibility that, if gender bias is in play, that Albus's bias is any more pronounced than the ww today, for that matter.

Aurors seem to have fewer women than men. Heads of Ministry departments and offices also seem to be male more often than female from what we see: over the past 20 years or so, we know of Crouch Sr., Ludo Bagman, Rufus Scrimgeour, Dirk Cresswell, Arthur Weasley, Pius Thicknesse vs. Amelia Bones and possibly Millicent Bagnold if she held a supervisory position before becoming Minister for Magic. Of the four Ministers we see, three (Fudge, Scrimgeour, Thicknesse) are men, one (Bagnold, whom we don't actually see as Minister but who is in power when Harry is left on the doorstep) a woman. (If Kingsley got promoted in-book and not just in interview, make that 4/5 male for the post.) Umbridge reaches a high post, senior undersecretary. (Kind of notable that the three highest-ranking women here are (a) retired and irrelevant, (b) killed off quickly, and (c) evil...)

We know more male Ministry rank-and-file names as well, I think. Croaker and Bode, Perkins, Reg Cattermole, Percy Weasley, Kingsley Shacklebolt, Alastor Moody, , Dawlish, Amos Diggory, Walden Macnair, Frank Longbottom vs. Alice Longbottom, Bertha Jorkins, Mrs. Edgecombe, and Tonks.

The Wizengamot seems like the numbers might be more equal, peeking around the fact that Harry knows more of the men by name?

Both retail establishment ownership and service jobs seem to tilt male as well. The trolley witch, Madame Malkin, Madame Rosmerta, Madame Puddifoot, the Weasleys' shop girl, and Mrs. Flume vs. Ambrosius Flume, Aberforth Dumbledore, Ollivander, Florian Fortescue, Stan and Ernie, Tom of the Leakey Cauldron, Borgin and Burke, and the Weasley twins. And all those male goblins working at the bank. Though we don't see all the shops in Hogsmeade or even Diagon and Knockturn Alleys, so this might be misleading.

Musicians: Celestina Warbeck, Stubby Boardman, and the Weird Sisters consisting of an unspecified number (in the book) of hairy men.

Writers: Rita Skeeter, Gilderoy Lockhart, Bathilda Bagshot, Libatius Borage, Arsenius Jigger, and some of the other textbook authors I'm forgetting.

If someone has better numbers, maybe we'd see a different picture, but it looks to me like Dumbledore is in line with the ww at large.

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

I forget who pointed this out years ago, OotP looks as though Jo had just heard someone criticizing her Potterverse for being sexist (focus on male characters, no women outside conventional roles: plucky sidekick, wife-and-mother, teacher, dressmaker, waitress., girl journalist who's really just a glorified gossip...) and said, oh no, the WW is BETTER than ours so it can't be sexist!-- and hastily wrote in a handful of women in positions of authority (Umbridge--who's really a Girl Friday who fails utterly when she tries to exert direct authority; Amelia Bones, past Millicent Bagnold, Tonks-the-Auror, retconning Alice Longbottom to have been an Auror in her own right instead of just Auror Frank's wife...)

But Jo really can't imagine an actually egalitarian universe, so as soon as she had enough token women to establish in her own mind that the WW totally isn't sexist at all (after all, only the nasty Slytherins refuse to let gurlz play Quidditch, and what else counts?), she lapsed again. Bones is killed off, Tonks is tamed by LOVE, and no new witches are mentioned as Department Heads at the Ministry, or in any other positions of authority.

As to the teachers, note that almost all the ones who don't count are female: Astronomy, Runes, Arithmancy, & Muggle Studies are all taught by witches, whom we never meet. (And we don't know whether Albus hired them, or Dippet, though in Charity's case it's suggested to have been Albus).

So for the core subjects we have 9 male teachers, 4 female teachers (counting Umbridge, who wasn't appointed by Dumbles). For the optional courses we have 3 male teachers, 4 female teachers.

But the teachers who COUNT, who Harry interacts with significantly, are the Potions profs (both male), the DADA profs (all but one male), Hagrid, Trelawney, and Minerva as head-of-house (her class is apparently irrelevent, since we only see it twice).

[sunnyskywalker]

It definitely smells of retcon.

Also, if the ww were really more egalitarian than the muggle world due to magic as a historically equalizing force (or whatever other reason), we ought to see this most clearly in all the historical bits of the Potterverse. Things like seeing Roberta Ogden as an important investigator confronting Morfin about his attack on Tom Sr., Slughorn having a gender-balanced Slug Club gathering back in 1944, Dumbledore serving under Headmistress Antonia Dippet, a textbook by Arsenia Jigger, the Gryffindor staircases' gender bias having been introduced recently to placate sexist Muggle parents if it had to exist at all, Purebloods ranting about Mudbloods introducing sexism into the ww and genuinely seeing it as a problem, old Pureblood family names being allowed to carry on in the female line occasionally, and enough other references to add up to a picture of more or less equality instead of what we have, the same Old Boys' Club with what you might think is slightly more women in important positions if you only know history from Hollywood movies and have no clue about people like, say, Admiral Grace Hopper.

So it definitely reads like JKR defaulted to writing it how she imagines the Muggle world, only later highlighting a couple of women to "prove" it's really better because she doesn't actually know Muggle history very well. And then on top of that, even when she manages to get the numbers equal as with the four Founders or the four Heads of House or the two foreign school Heads, the men are almost always more important to the plot and/or Harry's emotional engagement with the characters. (Sprout? Who's she? Whatever happened to Madame Maxime? Pffft, like it matters, right? Back to the saga of Igor Karkaroff, cowardly Death Eater with a history with Snape!)

[oryx_leucoryx]

There was Elfrida Clagg, Chief of the Wizards' Council (an institution that preceded the Ministry) somewhere in the 14th century (Fantastic Beasts, Quidditch Through the Ages). As well as some witches on chocolate frog cards. But they may have been exceptions who managed to rise by relying on class privilege.

[sunnyskywalker]

Yeah, I don't think we really see enough of the historical data to say that the ww definitely had a higher percentage of women in power than in the Muggle world (which had some powerful medieval female rulers of its own, so you're right that just knowing one or two doesn't guarantee anything about the position of women as a group). Probably the most obvious place to see it would have been in the Slug Club flashback, where we saw a group of boys. Well, that and/or mentioning a family or two that had passed its name down through a woman and/or actually having a Pureblood making some snide comment about Muggle attitudes.

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

I didn't get the impression that the flashback showed anything close to the entire Slug Club. I thought it was a favored sub-group of the Slug Club that consisted of Tommy Riddle and his followers. Tom, being muggle-raised, has a full dose of the usual sexism of the time, so his own club would not be characteristic of the wizarding world.

Not that I think the wizarding world is really less sexist than the muggle world, but the Slug Club flashback doesn't prove anything one way or the other.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Actually I'm pretty sure that was the entire Slug Club, because when Slughorn reforms his club that's about the number of students he invites. On the train he has Harry, Neville, Blaise, Cormac, Marcus and Ginny (5 boys, one girl, and the girl was invited on a whim, because Horace was impressed with her hexing ability). Then later in the year, the club has Cormac, Blaise, Hermione, and Melinda (as well as Harry and Ginny, but they never show up, except for Harry's appearance at the Christmas party). So 6 would be typical.

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

Six people isn’t much of a club. The kids on the train were just the first intake, not a full club in themselves, and not all of them qualified to become members. But we really don’t know for sure; as with so much in the Potterverse, it’s left to one’s own interpretation—which is what makes this fandom so much fun.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Six students from years 5-7, plus any number of adult guests (who after a while ended up being alumni of the club) he wanted to introduce them to.

[sunnyskywalker]

Which might be about right, actually, given that the club isn't a regular activity club but presented as a highly exclusive mentoring group. I'll run some numbers.

Assuming a higher school population, say 500, about 210 of those will be 5th-7th years if everyone stays for all 7 years, with 70 students per class if all years are equally sized. How many from each class would keep it an "exclusive" club? I'd say no more than 10%, or it isn't very "select." So let's say 20 students total. That would allow the flashback to be a third to a half of the club, and we can assume that all 10-ish girls are not included.

But the school population probably wasn't that high. The Muggle population was lower, which likely means fewer Muggleborns. VoldWar I might have killed off enough wizards and witches in their prime reproductive years to cause lower pureblood and halfblood birthrates, but we can't count on it, and anyway it might only have wiped out whatever population gain the magical-borns had made since Tom's time (assuming that their population was growing rather than shrinking or holding steady all these decades, which we can't guarantee either, but if they've been declining for decades there ought to be more of a crisis than we see). The wizard-born population probably was not higher, and might have been lower, than in Harry's time. Plus, not everyone would necessarily stay for NEWT years.

So let's try a school population of 350, with 50 per class. 150 5th-7th years if everyone stays. Probably no more than 15 in the Slug Club, 10-12 if the NEWT years are smaller. Which might leave room for all the girls in the Slug Club to have not attended the night we saw in the flashback.

But we can't assume that he had the maximum every year; he was ruthless in cutting anyone who didn't meet his standards, and so he might have had some periods with only 6-8 members. This might also be the case if he is more exclusive than the 10%, or if the student body was even smaller, or if he usually only invites 6th-7th years and only very exceptional 5th years. Tom's group might well have been the whole club that year.

Though Tom might have made sure only his chosen favorites made the club during his time, making that a fluke couple of years... but who knows.

However, we also hear Slughorn's evaluation of which students on his shelf are worthy of mention. The only girls mentioned from before Harry's time are Lily and Gwenog Jones. (The movies added pictures with Wendy Slinkhard and Dahlia F.) We also hear about--discounting Tom's group--Barnabas Cuffe, Dirk Cresswell, Lucius Malfoy, Ambrosius Flume, Regulus Black, Eldred Worple, possibly Snape, and maybe Trelawney as well but he might just have invited all the faculty (she has a famous grandmother, but that alone isn't enough to keep you in the club).

Could it be that he had roughly equal numbers, but hardly any of the girls ended up worthy of mention when he brags about his former Slugs? Possibly, but it seems more likely that he just had more boys in the club on average, so there are more boys overall to stick out as great former members.

I think a club fluctuating between 6 and 15 members, depending on the pickings that year, works for a small school and for a club that's more of a small mentoring group where meeting the graduates is one of the big draws.

[oryx_leucoryx]

For both men and women, the majority of available jobs are either as Ministry bureaucrats or in the private commercial sector - whether as manager or assistant in a shop. There is an artisan sector for those who make the specialty goods that they sell (eg wandmakers, potioneers), and there must be a manufacturing sector somewhere - somebody has to make the various merchandise items, even the twins don't manufacture all their joke items themselves. But it isn't clear how big this sector needs to be, especially as we don't know how much is done physically or requires physical materials and how much is magic.

So jobs that aren't run-of-the-mill would include artisans, Aurors, Unspeakables, healers, animal care (including wildlife management), curse breakers (how many were there?), writers.

[sunnyskywalker]

Part of the problem here may be JKR's focus, too. We do see some women running shops and such, but they're always overshadowed. Madame Malkin? Total non-entity. Florean Fortescue? Colorful character for the brief moments we see him, shares a surname with a former headmaster, and then portentously kidnapped! Madame Rosmerta? Well, she delivers some exposition once, is sort of vaguely curvy in the background occasionally, and then we hear she was used as a plot device. Aberforth? Saves the kids' bacon, is intimately connected to one of the main characters, gets to deliver important news himself, and takes a generally active role once we finally meet him. Are there female Aurors besides Tonks and the long-retired Alice? Maybe, but we're so busy hearing about all the plot-moving guys that they never come up. Might there be a female wandmaker, or might Ollivander have a daughter who's the heir-apparent to the family business? Possible, but the important, featured, plot-relevant character who represents all of wizarding wandmaking to us just happened to be the guy. The same way all the people we actually see being the best and most plot-relevant potion brewers, ice cream makers, bartenders, etc. also "just happen" to be male.

So if JKR came out with the names of every shop owner and artisan and potioneer and Wizengamot and it turned out to be more or less equal on paper, it still doesn't come across that way in the books, because she defaulted to a male emphasis.

[oryx_leucoryx]

If we accept interview and other ex-canon them Albus hired Charity Burbage (when Quirrell left the position). And while Dippet hired Minerva, Albus was the one who supposedly recommended her to apply. More canonically, he must have been the one who promoted her to the deputy position.

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

I missed this bit. What did JKR say about Dippet hiring Minerva? Was it on Pottermore? or a separate interview?

[oryx_leucoryx]

Based on the Pottermore material - Albus was still Transfiguration teacher, they both taught in the same department for a while.

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

The more I hear about Pottermore, the more I'm glad I didn't bother. That makes absolutely no sense.

Why in the world would they bring her in during the middle of the year if she wasn't replacing Albus?

Even if he had merely been the Transfiguration teacher and was suddenly given the Deputy position in the middle of the year then why would he suddenly need her as an asst. teacher if Minerva handles it all during Harry's time by herself?

This is more of a rant than a real asking of the question. I cannot see any reason that fits unless perhaps the school was double in size? Even then, it would have made more sense to have just given the Head of House duties to another teacher so Albus would have only been Teacher and Deputy rather than hiring another teacher mid-year. And if they had truly needed another teacher because of the number of classes (double the students, perhaps?) then she would have been hired at the beginning of the school year. As would have many other asst. teachers for core classes.

[oryx_leucoryx]

OK, sorry, got it a bit wrong. Albus had little to do with her hiring, as far as we can tell. He was head of the Transfiguration department. She was working at the Ministry, but unhappy about her job. She declined a promotion, but instead OWLed Hogwarts asking for a job, and received a positive response within hours.

Either there were a lot more students then so an extra teacher was seen as a boon, or she was hired as some kind of assistant initially or who knows, Rowling realized things weren't working out the way she wrote canon.

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

It made SO much more sense when it seemed she was hired mid-year to replace an Albus who moved into the Headmaster position - presumably after Dippet died that December. Of course she messed that up as well with Lupin's implication that Albus became Headmaster just in time to let him come to school - quite a few years after Minerva was hired.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Re: The diary: Rowling completely destroyed the 'significant death' hypothesis of Albus in the interview in which she listed the people with whose deaths Tom made the Horcruxes. Yes, she claimed the ring was made with Riddle Sr and the diary with Myrtle (and the cup with Hepzibah). But she also said the diadem was Horcruxified with an Albanian peasant and the locket with a Muggle tramp. SRSLY? Also, to have it be that way there doesn't need to be s connection in time between the murder and the Hocruxification. Then why not use the deaths of the Riddle grandparents?

Jodel thinks Riddle had multiple diaries, which he used for recording memories of his magical achievements. She thinks the memory function was unrelated to the Horcrux function. He decided to make one of his diaries into a Horcrux that could release the basilisk - so he used the one that had memories of him doing just that. IOW the soul-bit is what makes the memory an active being that can possess people. (And apparently he didn't figure out how to physically obtain anyone else's memories.)

[oryx_leucoryx]

Regarding how long Peter had been spying - it is possible Sirius arrived at that conclusion much later, not based on any Order deaths, but upon re-examination of Peter's behavior in retrospect. There may have been some change in his attitude that after the fact Sirius attributed to him having come under a different influence.