POA: Chapter Three

[kaskait.livejournal.com]

The Knight Bus

*Harry is at large on the streets of Magnolia Crescent and there is anger burning in his heart. But don't worry the love is there too. Its mixing with the anger to create something really good and is sure to save the world.

*Oh no, Harry's stranded in a muggle world. As if the wizarding world is any safer.

*Damn, Harry is now a fugitive and expelled from Hogwarts! He violated the underage magic rule.

*There is a lack of notices from the MOM. I'm thinking this was still during the years that Fudge was still Dumpeydore's water boy.

*Well, now that he is a magical JD, an underage runaway BUT with a vault of gold, why not just use MORE magic? To hell with it all, right Harry? I'm sure the MOM can't pin down you're whereabouts at all. Too bad you aren't as smart as Riddle. I'm sure HE knew all the places he could practice magic without getting expelled. In fact, I'm sure most of Hogwarts (who aren't friends with the trio) know where they can practice magic without being expelled.

*You know, I'm thinking that this restriction is really just to handicap powerful muggle kids.

*Harry feels as if he is being watched. He turns to see a large dog and promptly falls down in surprise.

*The knight bus arrives just in time to prolong the mystery. Damn you Shunpike.

*Shunpike jumps out of the bus to deliver his speech. He is dressed in a purple outfit and his ears are really large and his skin is pimply. I suppose that was why he didn't get a job at the MOM. He was too ugly. We can't have ugly people running around the Ministry. Nope.

*Of course Shunpike has a thick, low class accent. Which is why he is working for a bus company. Don't you just love these books? We always know who is the upper crust from the low because Harry and pals have an RP dialect. Even Ron who should really be speaking with a lower class accent. But then again, his family were most assuredly former Kings of England fallen on low times. Nothing really, really bad can happen to the heroes. The Weaselys may be poor but their blood is the PUREST OF ALL!

*Harry tells Shunpike that he is Neville Longbottom. This is the only time Harry ever thinks of Longbottom away from school. Neville can always be good for an alibi.

*Harry asks Shunpike why muggles can't see the bus. Isn't it great that Harry buys into the prejudice of this world? It is a wonderful example of how loving and giving he really is.

*Shunpike is here only to give information about Black. He is a veritable scholar on Black crimes. He also very generously gives us information on Azkaban.

*Fudge is waiting at the Leaky Cauldron for Harry. Poor Shunpike he fawns all over Fudge. I guess he is still hoping for a better job. Clear up that acne, shrink your ears and learn better pronunciation Shunpike.

*A Harry Potter series bon mot: People who don't speak well deserve the low class jobs they get.

*Another bon mot: If you aren't connected by blood or friendship to someone better, you deserve the low class job you have.

*Fudge laughs off Harry's magical mistake. He states that Aunt Marge has been obliviated and the Dursleys will take him back.

*I shudder to think of what the aurors did to the Dursleys to convince them to take back Harry.

*Harry asks Fudge if he could give him permission to go to Hogsmeade.

*I love how Harry completely forgets all the trouble he has caused and immediately just thinks about his own silly problems. Harry needs to go to Hogsmeade, dammit!

*Fudge refuses to give permission. Damn Fudge, the aurors couldn't get a signed permission note from the Dursleys while they were messing with the Dursleys memories? This is HARRY POTTER you know. He just can't be treated like any old normal person.

*Harry is shown to his room and Hedwig is waiting for him.

*I guess staying with the Weaselys was too much for even Hedwig to handle. She would have rather taken shelter with the homeless Harry. Darn, that is saying quite a bit about the Weaselys.

*Harry then sleeps the sleep of the pure and blameless at the Leaky Cauldron inn.

Comments

[kaskait.livejournal.com]

Then why, pray tell, did the book find it necessary to use this dialect for Stan's speech?

"Woss that on your ead?"

If this was an egalitarian society with proper education for all (for a population considerably smaller than non-magical people) then why is Stan stuck in this job, with a horrible accent and sucking up to Fudge?

Why is Ron given proper pronunciation in the book or even Harry. Why aren't they given slang written speech like Stan? If its not written like that, then they don't speak with accents. They speak with proper diction. Which is only correct because they are the elite in these books.

The movies are another matter.

[saylee.livejournal.com]

What's worse is that Stan is only supposed to be a couple of years older than Harry, but he clearly doesn't go to Hogwarts and it's supposed to be the only magical school in Britain. Are working class kids not entitled to an education in the wizarding world? The only person we see athogwarts who seems to come from a working class background is Snape (maybe Hagrid?).

[kaskait.livejournal.com]

I think he probably did go to Hogwarts and didn't do so well in 5th year. So he was out by 6th.

You see, Hogwarts gives a place but it doesn't do much more than that. Unless you're a special case like Harry or even the Weaselys.

I mean if the Twins did so bad on their O.W.L.s, why were they allowed to stay? And, if Stan (theoretically) did just as awful, why did he leave?

Plus even more strange is that noone Harry knows speaks with such a crazy dialect unless it is Hagrid. Well Hagrid was kicked out.

What did Snape do? He got rid of his accent. Which puts him in the same spot as the Dursleys. He is trying to be something he isn't and thats BAD to the BONE.

[woman-ironing.livejournal.com]

Then why, pray tell, did the book find it necessary to use this dialect for Stan's speech?

Because the working classes with their quaint accents are intrinsically comical;) Just ask Shakespeare!

Does egalitarian mean everyone speaking with the same voice, then? And the only jobs being the white-collar type? Why should Stan not be happy working as a bus conductor? Looks like fun to me, and he gets to meet celebrities. (Actually, I thought he was a little free with Mr Fudge. Had they been introduced?) But woss wrong wiv Stan's accent? Uh? We all talk like that round here, dahling - I mean, darlin'.

Why is Ron given proper pronunciation in the book or even Harry. Why aren't they given slang written speech like Stan?

Because it would be tedious. The apostrophes alone! Mind you, I always like to read Harry as a scouser myself...

[kaskait.livejournal.com]

Because the working classes with their quaint accents are intrinsically comical;) Just ask Shakespeare!

Then why doesn't Harry attend school with ANY student who speaks like Stan? Hmmm, its comical, so why not include a whole boatload of them?

I'm pointing out the way the books are written, not trying to justify its choices. Right now, as it stands, the books are based on classism and the hero condones it. Whether or not the author changes it in the future is unknown.

[q-spade.livejournal.com]

From the gist of the conversation, you don't seem to be the one trying to justify the author's choice of specific stereotypes to inform Stan Shunpike's character. :)

I agree with your critique wholeheartedly, and think you make a very good point here:

If this was an egalitarian society with proper education for all (for a population considerably smaller than non-magical people) then why is Stan stuck in this job, with a horrible accent and sucking up to Fudge?

Why indeed? And whether or not Stan is "happy working as a bus conductor" is irrelevant – he's there because of lack of choices in his circumstances.

[merrymelody.livejournal.com]

I'd say that just from the couple of mentions of him in the text, he doesn't sound particularly satisfied with his job.

"It sounds like he was trying to make out he knew more than he did," said Ron. "Isn't he the one who claimed he was going to become Minister of Magic when he was trying to chat up those veela?"

[kaskait.livejournal.com]

he's there because of lack of choices in his circumstances.

Yes. He is also filling a position that seems rather useless. Ernie doesn't really need him to take the tickets. Couldn't some magical doodad accomplish the same with less fuss?

[woman-ironing.livejournal.com]

And whether or not Stan is "happy working as a bus conductor" is irrelevant

Y'know, I think Stan might argue with you on that.

And what is this dangerous idea of giving people with regional accents choices?

(What on earth is so horrible about Stan's accent? Millions of Londoners are perfectly happy with it!)

In fact, Fudge was only third choice for Minister for Magic; he got the job after first Dumbledore and then Stan had turned it down. According to The Quibbler anyway. If you check Wizipedia you'll discover that Stan Shunpike is a famed entrepeneur and owner of the EasyKnightBus network. He regularly does a stint on the platform to keep in touch with the needs of his customers and staff. His philanthropic interests include a foundation for the preservation and promotion of the UK's many diverse regional accents. He has an important collection of vintage buses, which is open to the public at his eighteenth century Sussex country house, Pikesworth.

[merrymelody.livejournal.com]

See, I have to believe you're purposely trying to wind people up here, because there's no way that you can possibly believe these arguments make sense.

There is no Stan Shunpike, so the relevance of his personal non-existent opinions about his non-existent job are moot.

Neither has this community deduced that Stan works as a conductor because he has an accent - our first clue that this was his job was the fact that it's his job. In the text.
Same as we've assumed that Dumbledore and McGonagall are teachers, and that Harry is a student at a school of Witchcraft and Wizardry.

People's attitude towards the writing of a character in a book =/= people's attitudes towards regional accents, people who speak with regional accents or even their own opinion of Stan Shunpike's character/personality.
Equally, noticing the author's treatment of class differences does not equal being classist.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It's interesting to take apart the accent thing if it's funny. I mean, would McGonagall be funny with an accent?

I think it's probably more, as you say, just pulling on certain stereotypes--comforting ones, perhaps, because it suggests the WW mirrors the Muggle world in ways it wouldn't necessarily do (while overturning the connection between exclusive boarding school with money by substituting magic). I've always liked Elkins' look at that aspect and the comparisons to the familiar types of Agatha Christie:

http://www.theennead.com/elkins/hp/archives/000145.html

[woman-ironing.livejournal.com]

Then why doesn't Harry attend school with ANY student who speaks like Stan? Hmmm, its comical, so why not include a whole boatload of them?

Heck, it's not that comical!

Come on, Harry doesn't know the meaning of the word condone. He probably thinks it's something he should wear when having sex with Draco.

[kaskait.livejournal.com]

He probably thinks it's something he should wear when having sex with Draco.

Lol. Probably.

But I'm peeved with how Harry has an almost autistic response to the world around him. At his age, I was certainly aware of the racism, sexism and classism in the world. I don't believe that many can grow up without that awareness.

So is this blissful ignorant going to save the world with purity because of his ignorance?

[q-spade.livejournal.com]

Do you have a point to make? Because so far your commentary w/r/t this chapter of POA isn't making much sense, and while humor tends to be subjective even at the best of times, you seem to be laughing harder at your own "jokes" than anyone else.

Which is all well and good in your own journal, but this is a community. Where people communicate, interact and discuss each chapter of a given book as it comes up. kaskait has done a very good job of politely responding to you, and deserves better than a lame reference to Harry and Draco having sex.

[artystone.livejournal.com]

Then why doesn't Harry attend school with ANY student who speaks like Stan? Hmmm, its comical, so why not include a whole boatload of them?

Heck, it's not that comical!

OK, maybe it's not comical enough for a "boatload". Fine.
Then why doesn't Harry attend school with ANY student who speaks like Stan?

[teratologist.livejournal.com]

Because the working classes with their quaint accents are intrinsically comical;) Just ask Shakespeare!

Other things that are intrinsically comical according to Shakespeare:

Angry women getting their comeuppance.
Angry Jews getting their comeuppance.
People getting chased by bears.
Calling people prostitutes.

Nothing against Shakespeare, it's just that occasionally sensibilities change over the course of the centuries.

Angry brothers getting their comeuppance.

[q-spade.livejournal.com]

Let us not forget Aaron the Moor in Titus Andronicus!

Let fools do good, and fair men call for grace,
Aaron will have his soul black like his face.

[woman-ironing.livejournal.com]

That list, it's from Borat isn't it?

it's just that occasionally sensibilities change over the course of the centuries.

In the USA maybe. Over here we like things to be just like they were in about 1600. As the fourth amendment to the British Constitution has it, if it was good enough for my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandmother, it's good enough for me.

[anehan]

Does egalitarian mean everyone speaking with the same voice, then? [...] But woss wrong wiv Stan's accent?

All right, I'll bite. The linguist in me would like to point out that no dialect (or accent) is inherently better than any other dialect. The same linguist in me would also like to point out that we think more highly of certain dialects than others, and we tend to ascribe more positive characteristics to speakers of highly-valued dialects and more negative characteristics to speakers of less-valued dialects. In addition, we all speak a dialect, even those who speak a standard dialect. You with me so far? Good.

Now, it's not likely that everyone in HP would speak Standard English, yet JKR doesn't normally denote their non-standard dialects or accents in writing. Therefore, when she does do so, it's significant. Does she intend to evoke negative stereotypes by having Stan speak a lower-class accent? I can't answer for sure, but it does seem likely.

But whether you agree with me that, in this case, a lower-class dialect is used to evoke negative stereotypes, it'd be foolish to pretend that the choice to use such a dialect is a neutral one.

[kaskait.livejournal.com]

A very cool headed explanation. :D

I can't be cool headed about it. I have had too many people in my travels come up to me and congratulate me on my good, non-accented english OR ask me if I even speak english.

So I can't be objective with the all dialects are equal thing.

[anehan]

Why, thank you. *preens*

I think I can be cool-headed about it, because here in Finland there's less stigma attached to lower-class dialects (though I'm not saying they are neutral). I think it's probably because the elite here used to speak Finnish, so it was more of a case of Finnish vs. Swedish instead of one dialect of Finnish vs. another.

congratulate me on my good, non-accented english

*headdesk*

[(Anonymous)]

Thanks for taking this up! I've posted this anonymously (if it works) because I've just discovered I'm excluded from posting here. Please accept my apologies for my misunderstanding of the community and for any offence I've caused. woman ironing.

Does she intend to evoke negative stereotypes by having Stan speak a lower-class accent? I can't answer for sure, but it does seem likely.

I would never dream of describing anyone’s accent as ‘lower-class’(!) and I dispute that speaking with an accent necessarily creates ‘negative’ associations. I know that accents do have associations and that there is research to show this, but the associations are complex and often positive, and while a Glasgow accent, say, may be associated with heavy drinking and a tendency to fight outside the pub of a Saturday night, it doesn’t mean that anyone applies those characteristics routinely to every Glaswegian they come across.

Stan has a regional accent and works as a bus conductor. This community has deduced that Stan works as a bus conductor because he has a regional accent. And to bring us round in a circle, the community concludes that the job of a bus conductor is demeaning because it is done by someone with a regional accent. Stan’s accent, and by implication Stan himself, is held to be “thick” and “low class”. There follows a number of flights of fancy about Stan’s backstory, wizarding world education policy, class prejudice at Hogwarts, Snape’s origins and ambitions, and Harry’s understanding of the world he lives in. It’s fun, but it can’t be serious. The Society for the Promotion of Working-class Welfare is but a step away!

The wizarding world is in many respects an evocation of a mythical pre-WWII Britain, and the HP books are steeped in the children’s literature of actual pre-WWII Britain but the reader is hardly expected to share the attitudes and views of that time, when society – or a powerful section of it - did still tend to categorise individuals by occupation and accent. The book was written in the 1990s when, as now, it was neither adequate nor acceptable to define an individual by his/her accent or occupation. I don’t for a moment suppose that the members of this community would apply the approach they’re using with Stan to someone with a regional accent or to a bus conductor they met in RL, or that they imagine it is the attitude the author would apply in her daily life. The question is, is it worthwhile to apply it to this character in this novel? For the purpose of having fun, certainly. For the purpose of evaluating and understanding the novel, well it’s a place to start.

I know I don’t really have to say this, but it is worth remembering that the HP books are novels, and as such they don’t operate on only one level with only one tone. Novelists can – and need and must - get away with a lot more than academics, or the compilers of train timetables, for example, and when it comes to comedy they can get away with just about anything. Yes, we’re meant – and allowed - to find Stan, what he says, and the way he says it amusing. Yes, like Hagrid, Stan is associated in part through his accent with simplicity and a certain innocence. In both cases this serves to reinforce that their mistreatment at the hands of the wizarding powers-that-be is poignant and unjustified and obviously wrong. It really does not imply that Harry is some sort of marxist manque, or that there is a conspiracy against the working-class at Hogwarts. Regional accents do not figure among the students at Hogwarts. One chapter in which a character based on a London bus conductor speaks with a London accent is one thing, but an entire novel – series of novels! - littered with ‘By ‘eck’, ‘Cor blimey’, ‘Innit?’, and ‘Oo arr’ would be quite another. (How many readers would be able to identify a particular regional accent, I wonder? How many could bear to read the thing at all?) We are given little information about the backgrounds of the students, and whether or not 'we' imagine them all as middle-class peas in a pod is up to us.

[kaskait.livejournal.com]

I would never dream of describing anyone’s accent as ‘lower-class’(!) and I dispute that speaking with an accent necessarily creates ‘negative’ associations.

This indicates to me that you never experienced anyone making snap judgments on your speech or appearance. I have and its my sore point. Accents are the first weapon in class war. I've seen it up close.

Its not the accent that I have a problem with in the book, its the way it is presented. Why not include a teacher at Hogwarts with such an accent? Why not Hermione, Ron, Ginny, Neville or Luna? To write that it would be tedious to do so would be to denigrate the efforts of Mark Twain or Anthony Burgess and numerous other writers who have made their character's accents a point to notice in their books.

The fact that any noticeable "accent" is attributed to characters who seem to be the underclass is a little disturbing. The fact that this was a common practice in "pre-war literature" makes no difference to me. We no longer live in that world and hopefully are more egalitarian in our views. No doubt, 50 years in the future, people will be better and practice better standards in everything than we do now. To hark back to the past as a golden age is dangerous. Because the past wasn't always a panacea to everyone involved.

Yes, like Hagrid, Stan is associated in part through his accent with simplicity and a certain innocence.

Again that has a note of being infantilizing and patronizing to working class/middle class people. They are innocent and must be protected by someone like Harry. They may be there as a point against an unjust society. But so far none of the heroes, with the exception of Hermione (at times), think that there is anything wrong with the WW as is. As far as Harry is unconcerned now, the WW is fine by him (if he didn't have a psychopath stalking him).

Third time's the charm. (Sorry, kaskait!)

[anehan]

Seeing as you are banned from the community, I won't continue the discussion. Perhaps it's for the best, because I've yet to glean any coherent argument from your comment.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I've got no idea what Stan's backstory is, but I think it's a stretch to assume that Rowling's drawing on stereotypes isn't drawing on stereotypes. If she's drawing on pre-WWII literature why would the things she draws from that literature suddenly not carry the meaning they did then? Stan, Ernie, Hagrid and the lunch trolley lady are recognizable types that exist in the same roles they've exist in for a long time without challenge, as part of the comforting escapism.

Yes, we’re meant – and allowed - to find Stan, what he says, and the way he says it amusing. Yes, like Hagrid, Stan is associated in part through his accent with simplicity and a certain innocence. In both cases this serves to reinforce that their mistreatment at the hands of the wizarding powers-that-be is poignant and unjustified and obviously wrong.

But didn't you just lay out the stereotype people are identifying? The one that links funny accents to simplicity to innocence? It seems to be trying to have it both ways, here, saying that we can't deduce that the use of common class stereotypes drawn from a tradition that had certain attitudes about class in any way reinforces those beliefs, but it's okay to use those stereotypes to reinforce more flattering attitudes about class. But if I have to pick one or the other it seems like the books fit much more into the former idea, where cockney bus drivers and lunch trolley ladies are just comforting signs of a time gone by. Elitism is a theme that runs throughout the books, and sometimes it's criticized and sometimes it's not.

If Rowling is drawing on pre-WWII literature it makes even more sense for people to use their knowledge of the real world to understand the characters. They're saying that Hagrid and Stan, etc.--the ones whose accents are funny in ways Lucius Malfoy's is not--hold the same jobs that their Muggle counterparts would hold (blue collar and service jobs) while the kids moving towards middle to upper class lives don't speak like that and are served by them. That would indicate a class difference in the WW that mirrors our own, wouldn't it? Surely it can't be coincidence that the class differences happen to fall pretty much exactly the way they would in our world. I don't get anything in the writing that's challenging this or questioning why this is so.

Stan and Hagrid are both used to show mistreatment in the WW as *individuals* when they get into trouble. But even there aren't they still conforming to familiar stereotypes as unsophisticated cheerful innocents whom our heroes want to protect?

I don't think everybody has to be offended by these familiar stereotypes but I admit I can't find a way to really read them against type, or to not read their accents in the most straightforward way and contrast their accents, jobs and suggestions of different education to all the other people we know in the story. It seems too familiar and logical by Muggle standards to think this is a place where the WW is topsy-turvey. When it comes to stuff like that it seems like JKR's world is absolutely like our own.