PS Chapter Four: "The Keeper of the Keys"

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

* I remember how in the good old days before DH came out this chapter title spurred much interesting speculation regarding potential Hagrid-St. Peter parallels.


* I’m surprised Uncle Vernon managed to get a gun at such short notice, given all the checks you have to go through in England.

* “Couldn’t make us a cup o’ tea, could yeh?” says Hagrid, right after battering the door down. Maybe he’s trying to defuse the situation by doing something normal and sociable to set the Dursleys at ease. Then again, this is a wizard I’m talking about, so maybe it’s doing him too much credit to assume he cares about making muggles feel comfortable.

* “Yeh look a lot like yer dad, but yeh’ve got yer mum’s eyes. Probably time you gave them back to her.”

* Somebody once pointed out on this LJ that Harry’s only ever socialised to have a “might makes right” view of the world: at first he’s powerless and pushed around, then he goes to Hogwarts where he/the people who are friendly with him are powerful and get to push others around. Hagrid’s already started to reinforce the lesson, what with breaking into the house and making it plain how much stronger he is than Mr. Dursley.

* Hagrid’s use of illegal magic would have a similar effect, encouraging Harry to think of wizarding law as a joke which can be casually broken whenever one feels like it.

* Part of me suspects that Dumbledore knew this, and chose to send Hagrid for this very reason.

* Why didn’t Dumbles tell Hagrid that Harry didn’t know about Hogwarts? Don’t expect me to believe that a man who knows exactly which room Harry is being kept in doesn’t also know the current state of his magical education.

* “‘I know some things,’ [Harry] said. ‘I can, you know, do maths and stuff.’” Unlike most wizards, who as far as we can tell never bother with anything so prosaic as mathematics. I’m sorry, but if it doesn’t give you an opportunity to make inanimate objects tapdance around the room, it just isn’t worth bothering about.

* “I mean, they’re famous. You’re famous.” So, from abused nobody to pre-teen superstar. I’m sure that won’t turn his head at all. What was it Dumbledore said about wanting Harry to grow up as a normal boy?

* I wonder if there’s any difference between witchcraft and wizardry, or whether the school name’s just using hendiadys.

* “‘A Muggle,’ said Hagrid. ‘It’s what we call non-magic folk like them. An’ it’s your bad luck you grew up in a family o’ the biggest Muggles I ever laid eyes on.’” You see, Harry, when trying to whip up prejudice against a group of people, it helps to come up with a demeaning and insulting nickname, or “slur”, to call them by.

* One of the common ways in which authors try and cover for bad characters is by having anybody who criticises them be motivated by hatred, jealousy, or some other character flaw. Here, for example, Petunia’s speaking like an envious, closed-minded bigot, when as a matter of fact she’d have perfectly good reasons to dislike being around wizards.

* Oh, how I miss the days when we could hear sentences like “knew yer mum an’ dad, an’ nicer people yeh couldn’t find” without snorting in derision.

* Harry surviving the killing curse is quite a nice mystery, but the resolution is pretty bad. There’s no way Voldemort’s attempted Harrycide is the first occasion somebody’s sacrificed themselves for somebody else. What about any of the other wizards Voldemort murdered? Some of them seem to have been whole families killed at once, and do you mean to tell me that there wasn’t one instance of somebody telling the others to run while they held Voldemort off, or throwing themselves in front of an AK heading for somebody else?

* Not sure why Vernon’s acting so pointlessly obnoxious here. Sure he’s quite a rude man and he doesn’t like wizards, but he must realise the stupidity of mouthing off to someone who’s twice his size, has magical powers, and comes from a society where people like the Dursleys are somewhere between farm animals and dirt on the scale of moral importance.

* Harry thinks there must be some kind of mistake, because he isn’t talented enough to be a wizard. *misses the modest Harry of the earlier books*

* I pity the wizards of other countries if Hagrid is right and Hogwarts really is “the finest school of witchcraft and wizardry in the world”.

* Hagrid’s reaction to Vernon calling Dumbledore a “crackpot old fool” provides us with our first indication of the blatant Dumbledore-worship (Dumbolatry?) that goes on in Hogwarts.

* Instead of attacking Mr. Dursley, Hagrid attacks his son instead. And doesn’t even bother to undo the effects of his curse after he’s calmed down. Yeah, great choice of rôle model to introduce Harry to the wizarding world, Dumbles.

Comments

Nicer people

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

Are you sure Hagrid said James and Lily were 'nice'? I seem to remember it as Hagrid saying they were 'good' - which does not equal 'nice'. I only recall it because I remember arguing that 'good' could mean talented as opposed to actually non-evil or even just nice.

And truthfully, I'm a bit surprised that later Harry doesn't call Hagrid on his hypocrisy when he won't let Harry buy that book on jinxes that he wants to use on Dudley. Hagrid tried to turn Dudley into a pig (and left him with a tail that had to be surgically removed), but Harry can't learn to use a trip jinx on him?

As for Harry surviving when no one else has (even with other sacrifices) - well - that's what has everyone 'stumped'. Although I do agree with you, even if Voldy has never offered anyone else a chance to step aside (3 chances really), it's a little ridiculous to think that in all of history, no one has ever before been given the chance to live and still refused to step aside.

It's also a little silly when one considers FakeMoody's comment in GoF when teaching about the unforgivables, that even if the whole class had hit him with an AK they wouldn't have enough power to cause him a nosebleed. People HAVE survived AKs before - simply because apparently the caster didn't really 'mean' it. So it isn't impossible to survive - only impossible to defend against with a spell. Moving objects into the path of the spell works. Or phoenixes.

My guess is that IF anyone HAD ever survived, the caster would just say that they didn't really want them dead, so it didn't work. Can you go to Azkaban for casting a non-working unforgivable? Something like attempted AK?

Re: Nicer people

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

Are you sure Hagrid said James and Lily were 'nice'? I seem to remember it as Hagrid saying they were 'good' - which does not equal 'nice'. I only recall it because I remember arguing that 'good' could mean talented as opposed to actually non-evil or even just nice.

He says both: on p. 45 of the 1997 Bloomsbury edition, Hagrid says "Now, yer mum an' dad were as good a witch an' wizard as I ever knew. Head Boy an' Girl at Hogwarts in their day! Suppose the myst'ry is why You-Know-Who never tried to get 'em on his side before..." And a couple of paragraphs later, after getting out a handkerchief and blowing his nose: "Sorry. But it's that sad -- knew yer mum an' dad, an' nicer people yeh couldn't find."

Re: Nicer people

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

Thanks! Apparently, I've had it wrong all along!

RE: Re: Nicer people

[nx74defiant.livejournal.com]

Hagrid also thinks Aragon is nice.

Re: Nicer people

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

*snicker* Aragon IS nice (even if the hobbits were a bit scared of him at first) - it's Aragog that you have to worry about!

Really, I hadn't really thought how close the names were - an easy mistake - altho' I don't think it was necessarily 'meant' that way. It's probably a combo of Ara (spider) + og (famous giant). However, the similarity of the name with Aragon does bring up questions of Aragog vs. Shelob

Re: Nicer people

[nx74defiant.livejournal.com]

Oppps - I tend to get mixed up with names and spelling.

Re: Nicer people

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

Well, actually, it's Aragorn, not Aragon. OTOH, it's Eragon! Yes, easy to get mixed up. ;)

Re: Nicer people

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

And now it's MY oops! So is the poor man a ranger/dragonrider/king or a ranger/shelob/king? At least with Eragon, he's all human. I wonder what it is that makes that combo of sounds so 'fantasy-name' appropriate?

Re: Nicer people

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

To be fair, Aragon is probably quite nice as well: Mediterranean climate, long and varied history...

[vermouth1991.livejournal.com]

* “Yeh look a lot like yer dad, but yeh’ve got yer mum’s eyes. Probably time you gave them back to her.”

Reminds me of a creepy Internet short story I'd read: I have a crush on this girl. She had the most beautiful green eyes. That's why I carry them with me. At all times. In a jar. }:)

[josephinestone.livejournal.com]

The reason that Lily's sacrifice matters is because she had a choice, when most people they attacked didn't. For instance, James also died before he killed Lily, but he never asked James to step aside. It wasn't that Lily was the first to die protecting someone she loved, it was that she was the first that Voldemort ever gave that option to.

It had nothing to do with Harry and everything to do with Snape and the fact that Voldemort was human. He tried to keep his promise to Snape and not hurt Lily, but she refused to step aside and that made her died needlessly because he didn't want to kill her for Snape.

That was one of those things I actually kind of liked. Even though she tries to set it up like "Voldemort doesn't understand the power of love" what it really did was show that Voldemort was right about love being a weakness. It was like with the hand that killed wormtail when he hesitated. Voldemort let himself care about Snape, and putting someone else's needs/wants above his own, even though it was for a brief second, it what ended up destroying him.

Because you are right that it couldn't have anything to do with the love of Lily for Harry or this power would have stopped him long ago. She was just trying to put our focus on the Snape loved Lily and that is what changed everything, while brushing under the rug that Voldemort had to care about Snape for any of it to work to begin with.

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

Altho' I like your interpretation that Voldie still has some humanity, I'm not sure I agree that it is needed for him to give Lily the option to step aside.

He might also be doing so to have leverage over Sev, After all, Sev risked his life in asking she be left alive. Keeping her alive gives Voldy someone he can threaten if Sev ever becomes a problem. And just the fact that Sev asked for her life shows that he just might become one.

This also comes at a time when Sev had begun working at Hogwarts (the giving Lily the option - not Sev's asking). That has to raise a bit of worry, even if it was on Voldy's orders.

We know that when Voldy returns, he assumes Sev will no longer be loyal. I would think that indicates that Voldy was going to allow Lily to live in order to ensure Sev's loyalty. Once she's dead, Voldy assumes Sev will no longer be loyal.

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

Given what we see of how Voldemort treats his DEs, I doubt concern for Severus' happiness was really on his mind. More likely he was doing it to put him in his debt, and/or to have someone to threaten if he ever stepped out of line. Besides, if Voldy really wanted to look after Snape's interests, he could have just stunned Lilly and either left her on the floor to wake up later or kidnapped her and handed her over to Severus.

[radicalhighway.livejournal.com]

It's doubtful that its only because Voldemort gave Lily a choice.

This is repated in book 7, where Voldemort didn't really give Harry a choice just beforehand. He made some vague one about coming to him or he'd kill everyone else. Supposedly, that was the same thing.

Plus, Voldemort was never portrayed as having any kind of humanity. He was always a monster (or a monster in the making). He certainly had no humanity left when he gave Harry the choice in book 7, otherwise no such thing as Voldemort being "beyond help" according to Dumbledore (its true he's disgusting liar and manipulator though).

Still, it's completely impossible that such a "choice" hasn't ever been done. Furthermore, why would it not work for other spells and therefore more known? Just bulshit from JKR.

Lily's sacrifice or choice

[nx74defiant.livejournal.com]

One thing with calling it Lily's sacrifice or choice, it makes it sound like she knew that by her actions would save her son. From what we are shown from Lily's actions is that she was desperate. She had no reason to believe anything she did would matter.

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

/"‘I know some things,’ [Harry] said. ‘I can, you know, do maths and stuff.’" Unlike most wizards, who as far as we can tell never bother with anything so prosaic as mathematics./

Harry never takes Arithmancy, does he? I think that Hermione is the only member of the Trio who takes that class.

/What was it Dumbledore said about wanting Harry to grow up as a normal boy?/

Dumbledore: Yes, Harry, I put you with your relatives who didn't want you because I didn't want you to grow up a pampered little prince...but then I brought you to the wizarding world where everyone raves about how famous you are and where you even have your own special title, "The Boy Who Lived."

/You see, Harry, when trying to whip up prejudice against a group of people, it helps to come up with a demeaning and insulting nickname, or "slur", to call them by./

Cheers for the RiffTrax reference!

/Petunia’s speaking like an envious, closed-minded bigot, when as a matter of fact she’d have perfectly good reasons to dislike being around wizards./

But, of course, these were the days where we assumed that James and Lily were nice people. So, it would make sense that Petunia, who's been described as being intolerant and conformist, would dislike her sister. But then the later books changed all that, and JKR didn't stop to consider that by making James and Lily such awful people, she made lines like these from Petunia actually have a point, rather than just being simple nastiness.

/throwing themselves in front of an AK heading for somebody else?/

Like the German woman in DH. The consensus here seems to be that it's because Voldemort never asked anyone else to step aside, but if that's the case, then Harry had nothing at all to do with his survival, which I don't think that the books acknowledge.

And, of course, the fact that Voldemort even *told* Lily to step aside rather than, you know, Stunning her, Confunding her, brainwashing her with the Imperius Curse, putting a Body-Bind Curse on her, levitating her, or any other methods that he could have used to get her out of the way makes this even more confusing. In all of the versions of the scene that we see in the series, it's not really suggested that Voldemort is taunting her or toying with her when he tells her to step aside. He seems more impatient than anything, which, if that was the case...dude, *you're a wizard!* Why are you wasting time arguing with Lily? If you don't care about keeping her alive for Snape, then just kill her. If you want to keep her alive for Snape, then just Stun her.

/Instead of attacking Mr. Dursley, Hagrid attacks his son instead./

And in five books from now, Hagrid's former classmate will do the same thing when he assigns Draco an impossible task in order to punish Lucius.

[radicalhighway.livejournal.com]

"JKR didn't stop to consider that by making James and Lily such awful people, she made lines like these from Petunia actually have a point, rather than just being simple nastiness."

Interestingly, in book 2, Vernon's sister accuses James of being unemployed and this upsets Harry... yet its true, he was unemployed LMAO. Nothing wrong with unemployment, but she wasn't lying and Harry blew up his aunt, amongst other reasons to be this one.

"And in five books from now, Hagrid's former classmate will do the same thing when he assigns Draco an impossible task in order to punish Lucius."

It's only bad when a Slytherin does it.

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

Yes, what exactly is the difference between being an unemployed lay-about and being independent wealthy? Isn’t that the definition of being gentry—not having to work for your living?

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

* I’m surprised Uncle Vernon managed to get a gun at such short notice, given all the checks you have to go through in England.

I'm not British, but I do know it's difficult to get hold of firearms over there, so this caught my eye, too. I thought that, maybe, it was shorthand for Vernon being corrupt in some way: either he already had a gun - and living in the suburbs, with no mention of his being an avid hunter, then that's a little odd; or, he got it through subversive means, perhaps as favoritism. (Someone who is British might be able to answer how this struck readers of the series on first go. It'd be interesting to find out.)

Of course, then I argued with myself that the guy who rented them the shack might have given it to them for the duration of the rental - maybe the crackpot thought there was a Kraken out there (but, in this universe, he might be right...) Or, that Vernon was indeed an avid hunter, at least for certain clients, and had the gun for those particular client visits.

[spongebending.livejournal.com]

I have a head-canon that maybe Vernon got the gun because he knows about wizards, so he has this extra fear that other non-magical people don't really worry about. Most of them just go about their business oblivious, you know, but Vernon, he KNOWS that there are these powerful beings out there that could kill him instantly or even erase his mind! If I knew wizards were real, I'd probably go buy some sort defense against them this instant.

Maybe Lily warned the Dursleys (and her parents) about Voldemort and Death Eaters. Lily is a hot target, as she's a muggleborn and a member of the resistance; her non-magical family is at very high risk. Vernon and Petunia have a young son, I could see Vernon acquiring a gun while the war is going on. Especially if something happened to Petunia's parents (I always thought I was odd that all Harry's grandparents were dead, and they died awfully young for it to be of natural causes).
Vernon puts his gun away after the the threat of the Voldemort goes away, but then when the magical folk start pestering his family, he brings out his old gun from before.

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

The shotgun connotations for me seemed to be part of 'Country House Weekends' - something Vernon would have (probably along with his golf clubs) to get ahead in business.

I've probably read too many stories about that type of weekend in murder mysteries. I have no idea if that's the implication for those raised in the UK, but I doubt their first thoughts of 'hunting' is 'redneck' (not that all hunters in the USA are rednecks, but many associate hunting as such).

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

I've lived in 'redneckville' for a while now, even worked at a convenience store selling hunting licenses during season. Hunting takes place in what are considered to be 'redneck' areas, but not all hunters are what one would consider to be rednecks. Just to clarify, of course, since not everyone is U. S.

I'd wondered if the shotgun was for hunting, or for posturing to be a hunter for clients who were. It might even help if he doesn't practice except while with clients, so the clients can do better than he does, so he can compliment them.

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

It's interesting, in many ways I now associate hunting with 'foodies' - mostly because the one hunter I knew best was into cooking and wine. And these days (with the tail-to-snout' movement), it seems even more likely. But yes, it seems unfair to connect hunting to 'rednecks' when really, where else would the game be?

I must say that I'd hate the idea of someone hunting the animals in a large city park - although some of the deer in those parks probably could use culling. Still, too much chance of bagging a cross-country runner.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

The park where I grew up had an alligator in it for a while - not usual for southern California. Could have used some hunters then!

How many points for a cross-country runner? Would it be more for someone training for a marathon?

The hunters that I knew were cooks. They'd make their own sausage from their take - one even made himself a smokehouse - then they'd give any excess for gifts. After hunting season, in the dead of winter, they'd all sit around the store's eating area and trade recipes for home-made goodies, like chocolate cake (from scratch!) and variations on the sourdough starter, 'herman.'

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

Oh, I like that head-canon! It would make sense, especially after James and Lily are killed, though he could have gotten it well before then, say around the time of the prophecy. Then, there would be a time when no one, wizard or Muggle, knew what would come next, plus, they had James and Lily's son at their house, a sure Voldie-magnet.

[sunnyskywalker]

This chapter really sets the tone for wizard/Muggle relations throughout the series, doesn't it? I mean, we could write off the letters as some sort of magical macro gone wrong, but here's a wizard in person showing disdain for Muggles. Like, he isn't telling Harry it's his misfortune to grow up with emotionally abusive people who rub his face in how differently they treat him from their own son, but that he grew up with people who are super non-magical and think that's a good thing, the horror!

It's easy to miss when you're reading quickly or young or both, because JKR starts right in on her trick of having characters' bad treatment appear justified because they're awful, but carefully eliding the fact that the characters treating them badly probably don't and can't know that at the time. Hagrid doesn't even know the Dursleys haven't told Harry about magic and Hogwarts, and never so much as fake-casually asks Harry if "the Muggles are treatin' yeh right" to hint that he knows there's something off at home. We don't know that he ever saw the early letters addressed to the cupboard under the stairs, or that he would understand the implications of it for that matter (since the letters come addressed to whatever random hotel or rock Harry is staying in at the time, they might go to the cupboard if he used it as a play fort frequently, for all we know).

So he isn't treating the Dursleys badly because he's mad at how they've treated Harry, except in the very, very narrow case of them trying to keep Harry out of Hogwarts for reasons he doesn't know. It's mostly just that they're non-magical. So if Vernon says someething he doesn't like, it's perfectly okay to teach him a lesson by doing permanent physical damage to his son, who as far as Hagrid knows is innocent. Lovely people, wizards!

What's really sad is that there was so much opportunity for nuance here, which we could believe was intentional until the last book shut everything down. Like, it's interesting that the Dursleys have legitimate reasons for hating and fearing magic, but that doesn't make them good people or mean they always dislike wizards for the good reasons they have instead of prejudice about hair and clothes. If Harry ever realized this, he might have to think a little bit! "Wait, it's actually fair to be upset at people for not even telling you your sister was murdered in person and just dropping a baby off on the doorstep with a letter and no other contact for ten years, not even a book on how to raise magical children so they'd know what was normal for me... so Dumbledore was actually pretty wrong to treat them this way... but they're still nasty people... but maybe even nasty people don't deserve that, especially since Dumbledore couldn't have known in advance... whoa, the world is complicated!"