for neither can live while the other survives

[sunnyskywalker]

I've been frustrated for years that the prophecy seems exactly backwards: it says "neither can live while the other survives," when what we see is that neither Harry nor Voldemort can die while the other survives. How can you make that work even with all the wiggle room inherent in prophecy bafflegab? It's just backwards!

D'oh. What's one thing Potterverse wizards have that we don't? Proof that souls exist, and almost certainly an afterlife too. They don't have to take it on faith. Souls can be sucked out, ripped, and torn to pieces. Wizards can sit next to the Veil and listen to the voices of the dead.

The prophecy didn’t mean neither of them could live in their mortal bodies while the other survives. It meant that because they couldn't die, neither could go to their eternal lives.

Does this really work? I keep feeling I must be missing something. Like a giant gaping hole somewhere that blasts all possible interpretations to pieces. mary_j_59? Anyone?

Comments

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

The whole prophecy is just one wishy-washy mess - Rowling didn't have a clue what to do about it after using it as the linchpin for the entire plot of OotP - but yeah, I hate in particular that part of it. Because, clearly, Harry and Riddle were 'living' while the other 'survived'.

Rowling dropped the prophecy like a hot potato in the very next book after it was introduced - her exposition puppet Dumbledore telling Harry that it didn't matter, forget it, and otherwise being forgotten - and she only trotted it out at the very end of the series in an ad-hoc injection to try and convince any readers who might cared that the prophecy had mattered and had meant something all along:

"Potter doesn't mean that," he said, his red eyes wide. "This isn't how he works, is it? Who are you going to use as a shield today, Potter?"

"Nobody," said Harry simply. "There are no more Horcruxes. It's just you and me. Neither can live while the other survives, and one of us is about to leave for good. ..."

P'fft. Absolutely no sense at all that I can see. But I'm sure there are Rowling disciples who point at that sentence and scream SEE THE PROPHECY HAD AGENCY ALL ALONG BECAUSE HARRY MENTIONS IT OMG!!!1!!

How can you make that work even with all the wiggle room inherent in prophecy bafflegab?

Don't ask Rowling, she doesn't know. She didn't even try to make sense of it.

What's one thing Potterverse wizards have that we don't? Proof that souls exist, and almost certainly an afterlife too. They don't have to take it on faith. Souls can be sucked out, ripped, and torn to pieces.

... but not detected. Because a 'soul detector' would have completely ruined Rowling's simplistic disorganised substance-less story. So we don't have Horcrux detectors, or Horcrux detecting spells. And we don't have any of the characters asking about Horcrux detectors or Horcrux detecting spells. Because even mentioning the possibility would invalidate DH and the entire series. So a lazy author makes sure that her characters skip right past all that.

It meant that because they couldn't die, neither could go to their eternal lives.

It's an interesting idea that I've never seen mentioned before. But I think most fans, even the Rowling disciples, tend to shrug their shoulders and skip the prophecy, knowing (at some level, even if they won't admit it) that it was just another thing that Rowling chucked into her series with no real thought or planning.

[sunnyskywalker]

Oh, I'm sure she just patched together some dramatic-sounding hogwash. But it would be funny if she actually managed to write something semi-coherent by accident.

I'm still irritated that the Trio didn't even talk about trying to figure out a Horcrux-detection method. If they'd tried (like, really tried, not half-assedly) and failed, that would be one thing, but... seriously? This is your Super Important Quest to Save the World and you don't even look for spells or magical devices that might help you complete it? For that matter, why the HELL didn't Harry ask Dumbledore if there was a Horcrux-detecting spell the minute Dumbledore told him they needed to collect and destroy them all? Dumbledore could have waffled and promised to show him later.

She could even have worked around the pitfall of detecting the Harrycrux too early if she tried. Like, maybe they think their spell isn't working because it keeps giving "false" positives, and since all three of them are always around when they try it, they don't localize it to Harry alone.

Heck, even just running around yelling "Accio Voldemort's Horcrux" would have been better than nothing. It only didn't work in the cave because the Horcrux wasn't there, after all.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

She could even have worked around the pitfall of detecting the Harrycrux too early if she tried.

Ah, yes, of course, the Harrycrux ... the biggest reason why Rowling was scared of any of her characters being allowed to think independently and ask the obvious question, "can we detect/find a Horcrux with magic?". Because then her BIG SURPRISE would have been revealed way too early.

You know it's a horrible story - and horrible story writer - when the whole story relies on the characters not being allowed to be themselves, to ask obvious questions, etc.

It only didn't work in the cave because the Horcrux wasn't there, after all.

Nice one! I never thought of that. Certainly worthy of *trying*. And, after all, Hermione had done *exactly that* to get the Horcrux books!

[oryx_leucoryx]

It is called an idiot plot. The kind of plot that works only if the characters are assumed to be idiots.

So what should have happened if Hermione had tried 'Accio Voldemort's Horcrux' in Harry's presence? (Did Accio Hagrid work at all when Harry tried it?)

[oryx_leucoryx]

Hmm. Harry never rethought the sequence of events in the cave. He attempted to summon the Horcrux, nothing happened. After eventually emptying the basin Albus retrieved something that Harry assumed to be the Horcrux. Conclusion: Horcrux can't be summoned. Except later that nighr he realized no Horcrux was retrieved, so he learned nothing about which spellls work on Horcruxes.

OTOH, he knows Albus was terribly injured from dealing with the ring yet he had no concern summoning a Horcrux, presumably to his hand - and neither did Albus stop him. Did Albus expect the Accio to fail? Did he expect no other Horcrux to be cursed? Did he expect to be able to deal with the curse well enough for Harry to last long enough to fill Ron and Hermione in with the outcomes of the night's quest? Did he not expect that to matter?

[sunnyskywalker]

Did he somehow know the Horcrux wasn't really there, but wanted to know if there was a clue who took it and thus where the real one might be? I can't keep track of what he knew and what didn't (or only pretended he did) anymore.

Hm. Maybe he assumed that there would be an anti-summoning spell on the basin, because why put it in a basin in the middle of a lake otherwise? And Nagini was in that bubble. But the diadem was just sitting around in piles of junk. That one might have been summonable.

[sunnyskywalker]

It's especially horrible when the characters could have tried the obvious and the author could easily have thought of reasons why it wouldn't work on the unintentional Horcrux or how they might misinterpret the results. She could have preserved her precious plot twist that we'd all guessed already anyway after HBP came out! She didn't need to make them all incompetent!

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

All I can say is: I think you're dead right (pun unintentional). The prophecy makes no sense as written. At least, it makes no sense if you read it as referring to Harry. He is living just fine! Always under threat, yes, but he's quite definitely alive.

Actually, this is why, from the sixth book on, I was convinced the prophecy actually referred to Severus, not to Harry at all. It is Severus who is trapped in a sort of half-life; it's Severus who cannot move on. I was convinced it was Severus who was going to kill Voldemort. Harry was simply the last horcrux.

Oh, well. You're quite right. There is no theory or interpretation, at this point, that can make sense of the prophecy. It would make sense if it read, "neither can die while the other survives." But that's not what it says.

[sunnyskywalker]

And Severus is literally marked (though not as an equal; Voldemort doesn't go for equals).

Ugh, I think I found the hole in the "eternal life" interpretation (knew there had to be one). Dumbledore tells Harry he could take that train to the afterlife if he wanted, even though Voldemort "survives." So I can't even take it as "neither can live (eternally) while the other survives."

Dammit, Jo, we're really trying here! Couldn't you have given us just a little more to work with?

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

Ugh, indeed! You're right. So even Neither can die while the other survives" makes no sense. Oh, dear. Also--well, I think I'm going to put a short post above this one.

Thanks for these intriguing questions, though, even if they are frustrating.