GoF Chapter Twenty-One

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

*With a title like that, I’m just raring to re-read this chapter!

*Yeah, if it was Karkakoff who put Harry’s name in the Goblet he’d be feeling pretty stupid by now. Luckily it wasn’t Karkakoff, but a villain far less logical than Karkakoff or Ron. Getting past the dragon was actually what the bad guys wanted! They can’t kill Harry if he gets squished by a dragon!

*Why does Harry think Ron’s only saying he might win the Tournament to make for his behavior last week? Isn’t he in first place now? Why shouldn’t he have a chance at winning? Oh right, because then he wouldn’t be the underdog.

*Btw, I wonder what Harry’s going to say to Ron to make up for HIS behavior last week.

*I wonder if it’s intentionally ironic the way this book has Hermione going all shrill about treating house-elves well, while at the same time the animal abuse is turned up a notch. Here Ron throws Thunderball out the window.

*Harry couldn’t resist a blow-by-blow account of how he got past the dragon. This is nothing like Ron’s blow-by-blow account of how he won the Quidditch Championship, in case you were thinking that. Harry couldn’t resist giving it to Sirius. Ron didn’t even try.

*Nice to see the Gryffindors have specifically targeted Cedric as the enemy with his head on fire.

*Harry won’t have to face the second task for three months and probably a hundred pages. Because everything in the wizarding world is arranged according to a set school calendar. Even spelling bees are stretched to start at Harry’s birthday and end in June.

*What is Hermione supposed to stand for, exactly? Here she’s reminding everyone Harry’s supposed to figure out the puzzle on his own, and when he reminds her cheating just made him win, she grins guiltily. She’s the biggest cheater in the school, yet still likes to impress people by memorizing the rules.

*"Saints and begorrah!" says Seamus. "That egg sounds like a banshee, a traditional Irish spirit!" Then he picked up his bag o’gold, hopped on his magical shamrock and rode off to the kitchens to get a bowl o’ Lucky Charms. They’re magically delicious.

*Neville thinks the egg sounds like someone being tortured and Harry’s going to have to "fight" the Cruciatius (and I hear Cruciatius knows tae kwon doh). This sounds like it was probably considered proof of Witness!Neville at his parents’ torture. I continue to wonder if Barty Crouch didn’t just fill his head with all the details of his parents’ suffering at tea. He has to know!

*Of course, I can also imagine Neville’s Gran telling him this as a bedtime story and doing the screams herself for effect. Somebody should write that fic.

*This is the book that totally builds up Crucio as the worst thing in the world and horribly illegal. In book V it shrinks down to more of a "Oh no you di’n’t" level.

*Neville was the only person to eat the custard creams? I guess he got off easy. I can think of a lot of more disgusting "jokes" someone might do with a custard cream.

*Putting his miniature Hungarian Horntail besides his bed, Harry thinks, Dragons, they were all right, and goes to sleep and dreams of Draco.:-D

*Meanwhile, in the dragon pen, the Hungarian Horntail sets her miniature human on fire and thinks, Humans, they must be destroyed.

*Meanwhile, in the corner, the Chinese Fireball has died of grief over her lost eggs.

*Just to keep everyone up to date, the CoMC has now wasted three months on the same animal, which will never be on the OWLS, and about which even the teacher has no idea. Pure wanking, this class.

*I suspect the fact that Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle are "in the lead" of the students running back to Hagrid’s castle is supposed to suggest they are cowardly, as opposed to the Gryffindors who stay to help Hagrid with his rampaging fire slugs. I can’t be the only person who thinks the boys are merely leading a rebellion far more justified than Hermione’s Elf Front.

*Seriously, why do people even accuse Malfoy of being badly behaved in this class? Every student in there has every right to demand Hagrid be sacked, and it seems that the prospect of trying to force a dangerous, vicious animal into a box and nail it in has only resulted in him being one of the "dispirted" ones of the class.

*Again, we can’t make this more clear. Hagrid is even ordering the kids not to "hurt" the Skrewts or scare them by defending themselves, unconcerned at their own burns and cuts. Yet people will insist he’s a responsible teacher. The Trio are just part of the problem with Hagrid. Stop enabling him or he’ll never learn.

*Rita has gold teeth?

*Hagrid is described as "grunting" a line, so Pansy isn’t lying when she describes him as doing that.

*Why am I sure Rita, too, will be blamed for making Hagrid look bad as if she hasn’t just walked in on a demonstration of his uselessness as a teacher?

*Oh, and to cap it all off there’s something illegal about where Hagrid got the Skrewts. Color me shocked.

*Um, guys? Rita doesn’t have to twist anything Hagrid says. Just like Malfoy didn’t have to lie in PoA.

*It’s nice that Ron can comfort the others about Hagrid’s upcoming interview with the usual line: sure somebody we like is in trouble, but our people always get off!

*Speaking of students being disrespectful in class—which I was above—has Malfoy ever actually said anything so mean as Ron’s comment that Trelawney sees an "ugly old bat in outsized specs" in her crystal ball when she looks at it? I realize he mutters it under his breath so she might not hear him, and I know students say this kind of thing all the time. It’s just funny how people often act like Malfoy is this incredibly disrespectful student and so cruel, when this line is far more unkind than anything he’s said to Hagrid or Lupin, and Trelawney is more vulnerable. Not to mention Harry making a point of yawning in her face.

*I love Ron’s little fanboy moment with Krum. It’s enough to make me ignore the ridiculous Krum/Hermione storyline, though that has been a bit saved for me by someone telling me about the excellent theory that Krum is drawn to Hermione because he knows she’s Muggleborn and is fascinated with that because of the tight rein Karkakoff has over him.

*So…Hermione is happy and excited and just has to pull Harry down to the kitchen because the best thing has happened, and the best thing turns out to be that Winky the house elf is clinically depressed. That’s why Hermione is considered the compassionate one.

*I love the way Hermione has to try to muscle in on Dobby’s freedom, since it had nothing to do with her, and convince him he’s not being paid enough.

*Well, Mr. Crouch did have a reason to let Winky go (if Winky was a normal person and this wouldn’t kill her), but he wasn’t right to let her go as maybe stupid to let her go.

*I’m sorry, but I continue to be creeped out by the fact that Dobby, the "good" house-elf, is the biggest sycophant.

*And Dobby has also adopted Hermione’s view that a house-elf can’t honestly disagree with you. So when Freed!Winky says Mr. Crouch is a good man, he immediately claims she means the opposite and it’s only her enslavement that makes her say that. Even though she’s obviously speaking honestly and passionately about both Crouch and Bagman.

*Of course Ron’s taken a great liking to Dobby. He’s fawning all over him.

*Hermione’s sure the other elves will want to be free seeing how happy Dobby is. This is sort of like the people who think spending time with Evangelical Christians will make you want to convert because they’re so happy, while really you just find them irritating and scary. Personally, I imagine in the eyes of a house-elf Dobby’s freedom just means being three times as obsequious with none of the status. I like Harry’s, "Let’s hope they don’t look too closely at Winky."

*Percy wouldn’t recognize a joke if it danced in front of him wearing Dobby’s tea cosy. Well, that’s what happens when you most of the jokes played on you in the past two years have been chock full of malice.



Designated Hero
The one gearing up to cheat in the next part of the contest, yes, and picking on one bad teacher while lying to protect another and considering himself righteous.

Exploitation Filmmakers’ Credo
House elves don’t want to be freed. We get it. Too bad Hermione doesn’t, and won’t in a thousand pages either.

IITS (n)
Why can’t Winky just be owned by Hogwarts now? Do I even want to know?

Idiot World
Poor Ron is just too logical to figure out the evil plot.

Informed Attributes
Oh Ron, you’re just being nice in saying Harry could actually win the tournament! Why, how could Harry win when he’s so disadvantaged? His being in first place now is just a fluke. He’s hopelessly outmatched! Like David with three Goliaths! Only he’s in first place and team!Harry is already gearing up to make sure he stays that way.

Ken and Andrew’s Rule of Plot Holes
Ron pointing out the villain should be disappointed the dragon didn’t kill Harry is like having him map the plot hole and give it to Harry in a frame.

McGuffin
So who is trying to kill Harry by having him die in the contest? Oh wait…

Final score: 7

Comments

[aasaylva.livejournal.com]

Neville thinks the egg sounds like someone being tortured and Harry’s going to have to "fight" the Cruciatius (and I hear Cruciatius knows tae kwon doh).
I love how even ungryffindorish Neville can't stop thinking in terms of fighting here: From everything we know (and Neville is bound to know about Cruciatus), you can't do anything against cruciatus, you pretty much have to passively suffer through it. But I suppose a real Gryffindor girl would also call it fighting rape when she was subjected to it...

*Nice to see the Gryffindors have specifically targeted Cedric as the enemy with his head on fire.
Of course! Anyone taking away anything from Gryffindor, especially in the realm of glory and fame, must be punished! Honestly - at the beginning of this series, I thought Slytherin was blamed for being egotistical, putting their own group above everybody else. Um - and Gryffindor is different how?

*Meanwhile, in the dragon pen, the Hungarian Horntail sets her miniature human on fire and thinks, Humans, they must be destroyed.
That's what I found upsetting in the GoF-movie. I mean, JKR took points off for causing (unintentionally!) the dragon to break her eggs - in the movie, the dragon had to be destroyed...

As to your very just observation concerning the difference between Trelawney's and Hagdrid's treatment by the Trio - I really don't understand it. They are both inadequate teachers, although one might argue Hagrid understands how to treat animals per se, he just disregards their impact on other human beings, whereas Trelawny seems like a complete fraud if you discount her two prophecies).

I’m sorry, but I continue to be creeped out by the fact that Dobby, the "good" house-elf, is the biggest sycophant.
I think the point JKR is trying to make is the difference between heartfelt devotion out of your own free will (Dobby towards Harry) and being forced into service and - what is worse - loyalty (Dobby towards the Malfoys). Which I think is right. There is a difference between doing things out of love or because you are forced to.

And Dobby has also adopted Hermione’s view that a house-elf can’t honestly disagree with you. So when Freed!Winky says Mr. Crouch is a good man, he immediately claims she means the opposite and it’s only her enslavement that makes her say that.
Still trying to defend the story here: I think the point is that it IS difficult to distinguish between what anyone just says because he has been brainwashed into believing it and a sound opinion. I quite get the outrage on this board at Hermione's arrogance thinking she knows best what's good for the elves and MAYBE this is right, because MAYBE the twins are right in stating it IS the nature of elves to work and care for others without ever thinking of themselves. But, honestly, who would believe the twins concerning other creatures' feelings? Fact is, the same argument has been used for keeping black people as slaves ("they are like children. They don't want to take care of themselves, they like being told what to do!")or keeping women at home ("It's the female nature to care for their familiy asking nothing in return!"). In fact, when I first read about the house-elves I thought it was a spiff on the condition of house-wives.

*Percy wouldn’t recognize a joke if it danced in front of him wearing Dobby’s tea cosy.
Woohoo, I think you just hit on the real reason why Percy is so unpopular with his own family. He is much too trim and proper to really enjoy the incredible humour of toilet seats and snot!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I think the point JKR is trying to make is the difference between heartfelt devotion out of your own free will (Dobby towards Harry) and being forced into service and - what is worse - loyalty (Dobby towards the Malfoys).

I agree-but there's also a difference between heartfelt devotion and subservience. Why can't Dobby be devoted to Harry without fawning over him? Somehow as a free elf Dobby has less dignity than elves like Winky and Kreacher who support their slavery, but still find ways of showing their own opinions. To me of the three of them it's Dobby who suggests House-Elves really are naturally slaves even more than the other two.

I think the point is that it IS difficult to distinguish between what anyone just says because he has been brainwashed into believing it and a sound opinion.

Again, I agree--but the point is that it is difficult to say who's been brainwashed, and what Hermione is doing suggests that she gets to decide the elves are brainwashed just because she doesn't like their opinions. But the House-elves aren't brainwashed, afawk. There doesn't seem to be any thing like that going on. To me they seem at best--if we assume they're human like--just like humans who have adapted to their situation and formed values that are different. For instance, I'd like to think that women who are into "fully submitting" to their husbands are brainwashed and ought to be woken up and fight off their husbands, but the truth is some people really do gravitate towards situations like that.

That's more what I see in the House-Elves, that their attitudes are quite recognizably human, but while those attitudes have been shaped by their society they're not the same as brainwashing. It's not like they really would want one thing but that thing is being repressed.

With real slavery, for instance, people did indeed say that black people were like children and wanted to be told what to do--but the black people themselves didn't, afaik, agree with that. The childlike idea was a lie. I think with House-elves it's more complicated since their own society seems to value a certain place for House-elves--more like women, yes, but still with the difference that far more women seemed capable of being dissatisfied with their place and do something different than House-elves. Today there are still women who are completely free and choose for religious reasons to make themselves inferior--I don't think I'd go so far as calling it brainwashing. I suspect it's a combination of sometimes how they were raised (some convert) and the psychology of certain people.

[horridporrid.livejournal.com]

Today there are still women who are completely free and choose for religious reasons to make themselves inferior--I don't think I'd go so far as calling it brainwashing. I suspect it's a combination of sometimes how they were raised (some convert) and the psychology of certain people.

I live in an area here in the States where that sort of outlook is fairly common (husband is head of the household because God says so). But, and this is fascinating to me, I still see women who run their home and family with an iron fist. And it somehow works out in their heads. They totally see themselves as obeying their husbands, but are very capable of persuading him to do things their way. So they're good, bible-following, wives in their opinion.

Which is pretty much the Winky, Crouch Sr. relationship, isn't it?

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yes, they sometimes remind me more of the "working class" type than American slaves. I imagine they take more pride in their employer, for instance, and consider themselves to get prestige depending on their employer.

And word, too, to the case of women. It's a societal value that they're supposed to have a certain role, but they'll find ways of making it fit what they want. It's more about the role than necessarily a fundamental weakness in the woman. And of course women themselves worked to change this view so it's not like House-Elves there.

BTW, Betsy??? Did you just get an lj??!

[horridporrid.livejournal.com]

Yes, they sometimes remind me more of the "working class" type than American slaves. I imagine they take more pride in their employer, for instance, and consider themselves to get prestige depending on their employer.

Yes, very turn of the century British class structure, I think. (With Hermione as earnest young socialist, maybe?) (Um, based on television I've watched anyway... ;-) )

BTW, Betsy??? Did you just get an lj??!

I did. Heh. So I will never leave the computer again. mwahaha?

[mmmarcusz.livejournal.com]

Yes, very turn of the century British class structure, I think. (With Hermione as earnest young socialist, maybe?) (Um, based on television I've watched anyway... ;-) )

Hermione as an upper-class socialist who secretly finds the "common folk" repulsive..

[aasaylva.livejournal.com]

It's a societal value that they're supposed to have a certain role
This just made me think of another parallel between house-elves and classical house-wives: it is THEIR fault and thus their shame, if the relationship doesn't work out, meaning they are given clothes or divorced.

[mmmarcusz.livejournal.com]

Same goes for modern husbands...

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

I think the House-Elves seem a lot more like the servant class than working class. If you look at something like "Manor House" or Gosford Park, you see the servants identifying themselves with their masters. In Gosford Park, the servants of the visitors were seated at the downstairs table according to the social status of their employers. They were supposed to give total loyalty and confidentiality.

In the commentary, I recall that the screenwriter mentioned that the most heavily punished crimes were those committed by servants against their masters--because in order for the system to work, the masters had to have absolute trust in their servants (who knew all their secrets). If a servant transgressed against an employer and wasn't severely punished, it would give the others license to do the same.

That same severe treatment (magnified a hundred times) took place in America during slavery. Slave-owners had even more to fear. Their slaves didn't just have access to secrets--they had considerable motive to rise up and take bloody revenge for their suffering. It became a vicious cycle. Because they feared uprisings, the slave-owners increased the severity of their punishments. The worse the punishments, the more incentive to rebel.

Now, working class. American or British, they wouldn't be caught dead kow-towing to a master.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

My bad--yes, servant class rather than working class. Different thing. I meant the former.

[anehan]

Re: the house-elf problem. I think it's possible to argue that the elves have been brainwashed into thinking they want to be slaves, but I'd say that telling anyone that they don't really want/mean something they say they want/mean would be rather rude and condescending, not to mention untrue. Someone's desires and opinions may be shaped by the culture, but it doesn't make them less real.

However, my main problem is with Hermione's methods. She fails to take into account the intricacies of the situation. She discounts the elves' experiences, doesn't talk to them, and in general acts as if she knows best. Moreover, she tries to trick the elves into taking clothes without considering what would happen to freed elves. It's not like they'd easily find work.

OTOH, Hermione is a teenager, and that kind of black-and-white thinking is very teenagerish, not to mention very Hermione-ish. Perhaps its point is merely to illuminate Hermione's character, and it's not supposed to have a wider meaning. It's just that the later HP books are so bloated already and have so many unresolved issues that maybe Hermione's character could have been illuminated in some other way. (Although if I had to choose between house elves and Grawp, I'd unhesitatingly choose the elves.)

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

My own take on the situation is that the wizards are exploiting a hard-wired factor of Elvish character.

The Elves in folklore have always bound themselves to their "places", and served the property, with the interests of the family secondary, and only insofar as the interests of the family advanced the interests of the land (the Brownies are a variety of earth spirit, after all). What the wizards seems to have done is to extend the Elf's bond with his household, to the humans who claim to own it, and to add various geasa against working directly against the household's human owners.

And I suspect that there is no single model either. The original contract was probably between a freed Elf with a new wizard master, who offered him a new "place" to serve. These contracts probably varried to begin with and several generations down the track, no one probably is clear on the original agreement, since it has had several generations of casual interpretations on both sides.

To the point that some wizards are unclear as to whether House Elves are even capable of leaving their houses. And I doubt that is the only point of confusion.