OotP Chapter Twenty-Five
Apr. 11th, 2008 09:33 am![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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deathtocapslock*Warning: this was one of those chapters that really irritated me. But to be fair, it irritated Harry too. I know, that's a shock!
*Harry's being angry that Fudge is "blaming the outbreak on Sirius" is just so...Harry. Sirius is a logical choice given what everyone else knows, but when Harry talks about it it sounds like more adolescent petulance: Mom blames me and my friends for everything!
*Harry has met Bode, the man who was murdered. Not only does this remind us that Harry is Doomed, somehow, but I presume it is also supposed to make the death more real—-that nice man Harry met in the elevator? Dead dead dead.
*I notice this because I've been thinking lately about how part of the "darkness" of the series is that it contains death, but death isn't "real" at all, which is why the audience discusses "who will die" so lightly and Sirius' death didn’t really take. It just seems like "We are tackling really Deep Themes" when it’s really more superficial. Death and racism both sometimes come across like--ooh! Big difficult topics! Followed by: Ooh! Easy, shallow answers! ETA: Yup, I'm standing by this opinion, even with all those times the earth ought to have stopped turning on its access in DH. Should have but totally didn't. Imagine that!
*Oh no! Hagrid's on probation! What injustice! Not. The fact that he's still got a job says he's getting a pretty fair shake here. Happily, nobody cares Hagrid's on probation and many people are gleeful.
*Ron, Hermione and Harry are the only people who care about the freakish death of a MoM official. Because they’re the only students who really Understand Life and Death and care about Important Things. They're all so compassionate and sensitive.
*Is it me, or is there also a little judgment here about how only "a few people" read the newspapers at school, despite the fact that Harry himself only reads the newspapers, and only the parts that relate to him personally, and even then he's nudged by Hermione to do so. (Of course Hermione reads the papers—I’m sure Tom Riddle did too. If you're planning on re-shaping your newly adopted world in your own image you have to keep track of whom to get rid of, after all.) Maybe I'm wrong there, though.
*Funny none of the relatives of people murdered by Death Eaters get into their new celebrity status, as I imagine a lot of regular kids would. Oh right, liking attention is for losers. Please. Kids would be falling all over themselves advertising their six degrees of separation to both the victims they never knew personally AND the Death Eaters, I'd think.
*The breakout, rather than teach Umbridge that she may have been wrong, causes her to try to get a tighter grip on everything to bring it under her control even more, so it conforms to her view of reality. This instinct seems to be pretty common among wizards. Including Harry.
*How does Umbridge manage to teach a full load of DADA and also be present at every single CoMC and Divination class? Time Turner? The woman must be exhausted.
*How are we supposed to be reacting to Umbridge's presence in these classes, btw? She’s watching the classes of already bad teachers who are now on probation, and "harassing" them by asking them questions about the subject in which they're supposed to be experts. And in Trelawney's case, demanding she demonstrate powers she claims to have every day.
*Trelawney's drinking too—great! I love how Harry’s sympathy has to be reserved for Hagrid here, because only one of them can be saved. Trelawney is a bad teacher of a useless subject. Hagrid is a worse teacher of a real subject. But Hagrid likes Harry better, so Trelawney's going under the bus.
*Hagrid arrogantly told Harry that Muggles must be kept in the dark about wizards because otherwise they'd be wantin' magical solutions for all their problems, but it seems to me that Muggles on the whole have a better record at dealing with personal stress. Among many other things.
*You'd think Harry would get that Hagrid was hiding something when Hagrid claims he doesn't want the kids to visit him because he's nobly trying to protect them from getting in trouble. Hagrid's always gladly dragged them into trouble when he had some selfish reason for it. He’s proved more than once he doesn't care if they get in trouble.
*Umbridge is taking away everything that makes Harry’s life at Hogwarts "worth living." Such drama! (Ironically, I can’t help but think Malfoy's probably had identically miserable and melodramatic thoughts about Harry.)
*Harry’s happy all the DA has been inspired to work harder with the DEs escaped, "even Zacharias Smith." Um, why "even" Zacharias Smith? What's he done that would imply he’d be somehow different from the rest of the DA? ETA: Nothing, but of course Harry's right. He can smell the soul of a coward a mile away.
*Neville's bloodlust and desire for revenge causes massive improvements in his spellwork. It wasn't confidence that Neville needed, it was some good old-fashioned rage and a target for revenge. Because remember, in the past if there was some reason it was extra important that Neville be good at something, he screwed it up more. You can’t be a good wizard without a little bit of sadism! Don't listen to Yoda, anger is a good thing that makes you more powerful!
*If Snape had only really killed Trevot that time, Neville would be a Potions whiz by now!
*Harry now feels lurches of annoyance or cheerfulness for no reason. I'd be willing to bet what his friends see is Harry acting like just always.
*Wizards know nothing of hormones, of course. You must be possessed!
*Harry feels his Occlumency lessons are making his problems worse, but doesn’t think to ask his teacher, Snape, "Excuse me, Professor Snape, but my attachment to Voldemort seems to be getting more pronounced with these lessons. Since Occlumency concerns the joining of minds, is there a connection?"
*He could ask Sirius or Lupin, I guess, if only he had some object that he could use to talk to them without Umbridge knowing.
*Luckily Harry's friends are happy to tell him exactly why Dumbledore wants him to be taking Occlumency and what Harry *should* be experiencing, and then build a theory that Snape must be undermining Harry and working for Voldemort based on those assumptions. Ron should be in fandom.
*Notice that when Ron says, "Maybe" to indicate he’s getting a thought, Hermione gives him a "snappish" What? Ron's opinion is going to be stupid anyway, so just nip it in the bud there. Hermione's nobly sacrificing a chance to tell him how stupid he was after he speaks.
*Hermione's own theory as to why Snape can't be working for Voldemort has nothing to do with Snape himself but the fact that Daddy!Dumbledore trusts him and they must trust Dumbledore. This makes me hope she gets betrayed, decides she can't trust anybody, and starts murdering people. Seriously, it leaves the door wide open for blind trust and fanatical anger when betrayed. "If we can't trust Dumbledore who can we trust?" is not a line to inspire confidence in me.
*I love that Hermione's made super secret plans without telling Harry, so that he has to meet her in Hogsmeade. She of course doesn’t tell Harry what her plan is, because she "doesn't have time now" (really because that would give it away too soon plot-wise), but by not even giving him a hint she sabotages Harry’s date with Cho. If she'd said Harry would be meeting with someone else, at least, Harry wouldn’t sound like he was meeting Hermione alone for a date when he told Cho. Funny since Hermione was all into that relationship earlier. Boys can see other girls, as long as they know their real loyalty lies with Mother.
*ETA: Btw, I love the all the instances of "Let's have everybody not discuss things until I want them to discuss them" in these books. So the Trio can talk all night about Crouch in GoF but then still start at the beginning in the morning when we join them, or Hermione can't tell Harry anything here, or everybody can live together in a small cottage for weeks and yet never be able to talk to each other. At least with Hermione it works character wise--she never wants to reveal information until she can do it the most dramatically.
*Btw, I wonder if there's any particular reason JKR didn't want Ron at the meeting? She sets up a coldness between him and Harry just in time for Hermione to start maneuvering Harry into the place where she wants him. ETA: I guess if he were meeting Hermione and Ron Harry would have said that so Cho wouldn't have gotten as suspicious.
*Gryffindor has the worst team ever. Yeah, right. Like that's going to make me cheer for them to win the team cup AGAIN, as if they've suddenly become The Bad News Bears against the Mean Kid team. Little too late for that, Jo. We know you can't bear to have your heroes be unathletic.
*Harry finds it hard to have sympathy for Ron (as usual) because he wishes he were playing Quidditch like Ron is. That Harry is so incredibly compassionate. It's because he's such an empath.
*Harry is dreading his date with Cho. Seriously. It's not like he's just nervous they won't have anything to talk about, he's treating the date like some horrible duty he's got to get through, as if he's been asked to escort McGonagall's aged niece to Hogsmeade for the day. I'm sure he's supposed to just be nervous, but the book just can't convey Harry being attracted to her, despite having Harry rather lamely remind us her hair is pretty and that she's wearing it in a ribbon.
*When Harry sees Ron and Ginny going to practice and feels a "pang" I thought for a second Harry would feel badly for being so insensitive to Ron. Oops, he's just longing to be playing Quidditch himself. You know, if Harry asked Ron would probably gladly let him polyjuice himself and play Keeper.
*Pansy manages a screech and a shriek within the space of two sentences. Tell us how you really feel about those girls who teased you at school there, JKR!
*Cho damns herself by picking a teashop with frilly curtains. It's girly, like Umbridge. A sign of Cho’s inner corruption. Harry would have been more comfortable in a sleek, modern coffee shop called BEAN or something.
*Of course, Harry might have thought of what he wanted to do himself, but we all know a date means the girl drags the boy around while he suffers through it.
*My god, this isn’t a teashop—it's a LOVE TRAP! Cho has taken Harry to a place where girls trap Quidditch players into holding hands and such! Clearly she’s sat him next to Roger Davies so that Harry will snog her, even though that's probably Roger’s girlfriend and Cho knows perfectly well she and Harry are not close at all!
*Harry really does tell Cho about Hermione in a way designed to make it sound like a date. In fact, it makes him sound just like an arrogant prat like James, "Listen, Dollface, you wanna come with me when I meet Hermione Granger? She asked me so I thought I would—throw the girl a bone, you know. I told her I'd already have a bird on my arm so you’d have to come to, and she agreed. She wants me that badly."
*Cho deals with Harry’s announcement pretty well, thinking about other options as if Harry doesn’t care who she dates, which he really doesn’t. Still, Harry’s self-absorption can be tiring. There are people who honestly don’t think he shares this trait with James? He’s totally incapable of thinking of anything from any perspective but his own. He’s like a walking example of that joke, "But enough about me. What do YOU think of me?"
*Still, Cho also seems to literally be having some sort of a breakdown with all the crying. Has she been forbidden to talk or deal with Cedric's death at all and that's why she's desperate to talk to Harry?
*It’s kind of funny listening to Harry decide all that went wrong on the date was Cho’s fault for being a woman and a human hosepipe when reading it now I can see Cho was actually far and away the more mature of the two the whole time. She gave Harry the opening to ask her, carried most of the conversation, suggested places to go, showed a personal interest in Harry for himself and then, when Harry announced he was meeting someone else and makes it seem like he doesn't want to be with her, she was very honest about her real reason for wanting to talk to him--she doesn’t have anyone to talk to about Cedric and could use one.
*Harry’s reaction, naturally, is that he’s already got people to talk about it with, so why would they talk about it? His needs are met, what else is there?
*Harry doesn't know anything more about Cho than he did when they started out--he's amazed to discover they can talk about Quidditch, but he still never shows any interest in her as a person. Cho's able to see Harry looking longingly at the Quidditch Pitch and show sympathy for his missing it. Harry sees Cho in tears over Cedric and can't figure out she misses him.
*Though in Harry's defense, Cho probably doesn't have anything about her to learn besides a couple of paragraphs that wouldn't even make it to the website. Like that her Dad's name is I-Ching Chang and he makes quills to do calligraphy and her mother was a dragon charmer who retired when she had Cho.
*I think Harry’s going to really seem a little gay for the entire series. Even after he winds up with Ginny.
*Don’t you just love it when Hagrid gets drunk and self-pitying? I'm glad he does it with such regularity. Whatever yeh say, blood’s important. Yes Hagrid, we know. And what a coincidence that your "decent" parent was also the wizard one.
*It's so nice seeing Rita Skeeter scraggly and unkempt now that she's enslaved to Hermione. It's not creepy at all watching her live in poverty under Hermione’s thumb. No, it's a joyful thing, watching people get what they deserve.
*Who here hopes that Rita's threat of "one of these days!" that's dismissed so cockily by Hermione, comes to pass, and that Hermione gets her face shoved in it? *raises hand* See, this is why I love Peter Pettigrew . I get no pleasure out of seeing bad guys get theirs, but I love to see all the characters people think are too inferior to matter prove they were underestimated. And no, Neville doesn't count. Harry and Hermione love him. ETA: Oh, how naive I was. Why would Hermione's blackmailing of anyone come back to haunt her at all? Bad people know they deserve it.
*Finally we see a free press working the way it should. Hermione gets to say what stories get published and which ones don't. We can all trust her to be objective, or at least to only cover up stories that make her friends look bad, which is the same thing.
*Seriously, Rita appears to have become homeless or chronically depressed thanks to Hermione—wtf is up with that? Is that supposed to be some kind of fitting punishment for being a gossip columnist who prints the kind of stuff we see about celebrities all the time? And why are the adults in this world always so quick to become unkempt and drunk?
*You get sent to Azkaban for being an unregistered Animagus? So Harry's father belonged there? As did Sirius? Or not, because they're Harry’s Dad and his friend and had good reasons for being unregistered animagi?
*Okay, so I get Hermione's plan here and all, but are we really not supposed to notice how coldly she blackmails and uses people and has no feeling for them as people, especially with all the realistic signs of deterioration? Are we really supposed to be that angry at Rita for printing stories that embarrassed her and Harry? Or are we just supposed to love what a badass Hermione is and how ruthlessly capable?
*Btw, since they've already got a paper to publish the story, Luna's father could write it himself. Does Rita's name carry that much weight when we know she's a liar to begin with? I know there's a reason given that Rita's supposed to give the Quibbler some sort of validity, but ot feels like just a childlike idea that suggests that if you need to get a story printed you have to find a reporter (iow, either a tough-talkin' dame with a notebad or a guy in a fedora nicknamed "Scoop", both of whom live in a 40s movie).
*Ugh, this chapter left me with a really bad taste in my mouth. It's one of the ones that leave me feeling vaguely angry at everything. Hermione in this chapter makes me feel like most people feel about Umbridge, even though Hermione is far more in the right since she is, essentially, just trying to get the true story out.
*Chapters like this are what made me wind up feeling that Hermione in this book was just lucky to find a socially acceptable outlet for her bad impulses.
*The sad thing is this would really all be fine if she just went through a growing up experience where any of these things had realistic consequences. Then she might come across as just an overly enthusiastic teenager who didn't think of this stuff. Instead it's like this is proving she's ready to take over the reins of government right now because look how awesome she is! You have to be some kind of crazy person to think that these qualities could ever be a bad thing for a person in power!
Designated Hero
Toss up between Hermione the blackmailer or Harry the Worst Friend Ever?
IITS
I know Harry's supposed to be clueless but isn’t it a little odd that he presents his "date" with Hermione so badly? I mean, Cho knows about his basic relationship to Hermione. It seems more natural for him to have said something that indicated Hermione had some scheme she needed him for that was probably DA-related. Luckily Harry's canonical self-absorption makes this work.
Idiot Picture
‘Nuff said.
Idiot World
‘Nuff said.
Watermelon, watermelon, cantaloupe, cantaloupe
Or in this case, slurp slurp slurp in a tea shop.
Final Score: 5
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no subject
Date: 2008-04-11 03:44 pm (UTC)This might be a god subtitle for the whole series...
*Is it me, or is there also a little judgment here about how only "a few people" read the newspapers at school
I think there is, quite like in PS, Dudley was shown to be the revolting kid for not touching his books. I think Harry (and Ron) simply get a pass for 1) being boys, 2)Ron being dumb anyway and going to have a wife who tells him what to think and 3) Harry is the born hero - thinking and collecting knowledge always has been for minions.
*Umbridge is taking away everything that makes Harry’s life at Hogwarts "worth living."
But she left Ginny!!!
"even Zacharias Smith. What's he done that would imply he’d be somehow different from the rest of the DA?
I don't think it's real cowardice JKR accuses him of (here), but the sort of reserve he showed for the Good Cause. Being Gryffindor means to cheer wholehartedly for what the big guy at the top proclaims to be the Good Cause and question neither. Smith did. In fact, he should have been in Ravenclaw.
*It wasn't confidence that Neville needed, it was some good old-fashioned rage and a target for revenge.
No no no, it was love, according to Dumbledore. At least, that was what he told Harry in HBP, when the latter states he wants to kill voldemort because that bastard killed his parents.
"If we can't trust Dumbledore who can we trust?" is not a line to inspire confidence in me.
And again, Hermione never has to face these issues in the end. I don't think, we are even told she ever knew Dumbledore essentially condemned Harry to suicide at the age of one.
*Harry doesn't know anything more about Cho than he did when they started out
Actually, I found this first date of Harry's very realistic - a lot of boys (most?)are egocentric jerks at that age. The horrifying thing is, his relationship with Ginny is depicted WORSE, but the text claims it to be ideal. WTF.*
*You get sent to Azkaban for being an unregistered Animagus? So Harry's father belonged there?
Ahh hahaha. It's just like you get sent there for using an Unforgivable. Remember, Sirius and James and Peter became animagi out of chivalry towards Moony!
*Are we really not supposed to notice how coldly she blackmails and uses people and has no feeling for them as people, especially with all the realistic signs of deterioration?
I think JKR is a fierce champion for the Old Testamentary tit for tat idea: journalists like Skeeter ruin other peoples' lives (like Hagrid's if the latter hadn't had Dumbledore and a solid fanbase), so she should have a taste of how that feels.*
no subject
Date: 2008-04-11 04:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-11 06:03 pm (UTC)I found it perfectly realistic, too, and completely IC since I've always seen Harry as rather self-centred, but the fandom's reaction to Cho after this book suggests that they all thought he was Prince Charming. Cho, apparently was the evil bitch.monster from hell, for not understanding how uncomfortable she made Harry etc, etc. She takes about 80% of the responsibility for the date on herself, but apparently she was supposed to take 110%.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-11 03:54 pm (UTC)I still stand by my crack theory of Hermione being in the Riddle family somehow. But yeah, how scary is it to think that Hermione and Tom would be totally simpatico. If they had met at school, they would have been joined at the hip.
*Notice that when Ron says, "Maybe" to indicate he’s getting a thought, Hermione gives him a "snappish" What? Ron's opinion is going to be stupid anyway, so just nip it in the bud there. Hermione's nobly sacrificing a chance to tell him how stupid he was after he speaks.
Ron must always know who wears the Dictator hat in this relationship. "Hermione is the tops and top dog!" Keep repeating that Ron. You will get used to it. Learn it, Live it.
I love that Hermione's made super secret plans without telling Harry, so that he has to meet her in Hogsmeade. She of course doesn’t tell Harry what her plan is, because she "doesn't have time now" (really because that would give it away too soon plot-wise), but by not even giving him a hint she sabotages Harry’s date with Cho. If she'd said Harry would be meeting with someone else, at least, Harry wouldn’t sound like he was meeting Hermione alone for a date when he told Cho. Funny since Hermione was all into that relationship earlier. Boys can see other girls, as long as they know their real loyalty lies with Mother.
She was just helping the ever compassionate, hell queen to her rightful boyfriend. I just love how GinnyJoSue returned the favor in HBP. Now that is a good friendship.
Cho damns herself by picking a teashop with frilly curtains. It's girly, like Umbridge. A sign of Cho’s inner corruption. Harry would have been more comfortable in a sleek, modern coffee shop called BEAN or something.
Silly Harry, they only have hipster coffee bars in medieval muggle towns. NOT in WW villages which embody TWEE until it oozes from every orifice. No Bauhaus in the WW. No Sir. I wonder if Rowling realized that the Nazis hated the Bauhaus movement and were all about the Twee. She probably doesn't know and wouldn't understand it anyway. But someone writing an allegory about Nazism should know.
*It’s kind of funny listening to Harry decide all that went wrong on the date was Cho’s fault for being a woman and a human hosepipe when reading it now I can see Cho was actually far and away the more mature of the two the whole time. She gave Harry the opening to ask her, carried most of the conversation, suggested places to go, showed a personal interest in Harry for himself and then, when Harry announced he was meeting someone else and makes it seem like he doesn't want to be with her, she was very honest about her real reason for wanting to talk to him--she doesn’t have anyone to talk to about Cedric and could use one.
Its all about Harry. His woman, if she was Tru Lub, should know that instinctively.
*Seriously, Rita appears to have become homeless or chronically depressed thanks to Hermione—wtf is up with that? Is that supposed to be some kind of fitting punishment for being a gossip columnist who prints the kind of stuff we see about celebrities all the time? And why are the adults in this world always so quick to become unkempt and drunk?
Rita is just an avatar for some real life reporter who DID JKR WRONG!!!!!111!!!! The guilty party should know who he/she is in the story and suffer from the guilt. Which means in the next book by Rowling there will be a group of readers *ahem* Characters who won't understand the poor GENIUS hero.
Persecution Complex much?
*Chapters like this are what made me wind up feeling that Hermione in this book was just lucky to find a socially acceptable outlet for her bad impulses.
She is Riddle get, I tell you. I stand by it.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-11 07:52 pm (UTC)No, I think they'd have hated each other. There's no room in Hermione's world or Tom's world for someone close to their own level of competence.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-11 08:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-17 07:55 am (UTC)*grabs Luna instead* I don't care WHAT you say, she still PWNS almost all the character! Lalalalala...
...You know, aside from sadism... how is Tom NOT Harry's equal, personality-wise? I'm sure that at first his Death Eaters were his Dumbledore's Army. In fact, I have an AU with TMR's and Harry's generations switched (and thus the GEWD GENERATION and GEWD HOUSE and EVUL HOUSE switched), and there, the Death Devourers (come on, Gryffindors can't live without alliteration!) started out as Dumbledore's Army, which, in context of Grindelwald having been forced out of Germany and into England as refuge within a year or two of the Summer of Insanity and Glory (he later became Dark Arts - I mean, DEFENSE teacher at Hogwarts) and an unhinged Dumbledore was the Dark Lord behind the scenes, was essentially a Hitler Youth group. -_-;; Eh. Point being, take away the OMG GEWD and OMG EVUL markers, switch them around, and you can have a good TMR fighting the Dark Lord Potter quite easily... so much for "you wonderful, selfless boy". |(
no subject
Date: 2008-04-11 04:50 pm (UTC)Oh, agreed. A whole series devoted to angst about how horrible death is, and what is the final payoff? Proof that there's an afterlife, so no one has to be afraid to die! Yay!
I get no pleasure out of seeing bad guys get theirs, but I love to see all the characters people think are too inferior to matter prove they were underestimated.
Same here. I always root for the underdog, regardless of whether he's the hero or the villain. Which makes is a little painful for me to read stories with puny villains, because I can never help cheering for them. And it's an exercise in supreme futility to sit there hoping that Lex Luthor will manage to kick Superman's ass. ^_^;
Are we really supposed to be that angry at Rita for printing stories that embarrassed her and Harry?
Yes. Yes, we are. See, Harry is Basically A Good Person. He might do some stupid stuff on occasion, but that doesn't remove his status of Basically A Good Person, just like Malfoy occasionally coming off as human and not totally bad does not remove his status as Basically A Bad Person. And when someone who is Basically A Bad Person harms someone who is Basically A Good Person, then there's just no amount of punishment in the world that can make up for that outrage.
This kind of attitude is enough to make me wonder if Christianity isn't on to something with its insistence that we're all Basically Bad People and that we therefore should have mercy on each other - except for the fact that Rowling is a Christian and still manages to divide the world into people who have a right to exist and people who don't.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-11 05:35 pm (UTC)I just wanted to say 2 things:
a) The series was devoted to learning to accept death since the first book;
b) If you're Voldemort, you have to be horrified at the thought of eternal torture after death. Now when I think about it, what about Peter? Did he pay for his sins in his life, or will he suffer after death too?
no subject
Date: 2008-04-11 06:08 pm (UTC)I stand corrected - no one has to be afraid to die except for bad people. ;) But that's just adding one comforting delusion to another.
Now when I think about it, what about Peter? Did he pay for his sins in his life, or will he suffer after death too?
He'll roast in hell, I'm fairly sure. There is only forgiveness for bad people in Rowling's world if the fans like them and would make a fuss if they didn't get some kind of half-assed redemption. =]
no subject
Date: 2008-04-13 07:16 pm (UTC)Harry's been accepting it since book one when he thought he was going to die with Quirrel, and he always has this moment of peace when he fades to black, so why would it be scary? The friendly ghosts are the biggest problem, imo, because if we could see people who died and they're just fine and the same as always, we lose the fear of the unknown so death actually isn't that scary.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-11 04:56 pm (UTC)AFAIK, there has been some discussion about whether the Death Eaters are more like Nazis (as claimed by the author) or more like the Ku-klux-Clan. The far more interesting topic would be to explore the similarities between the so-called side of Light/ the subtext and the Nazi-movement.
- The one big man at the top who everybody has got to trust on sight - in fact, as far as real life experience of the masses went, there was a better case to be made (in the beginning) for Hitler than for Dumbledore. Hitler went for the theoretically bad guys first (or who he perceived them to be) whereas Dumbledore cheerfully sacrifices his own followers right from the beginning.
- the deep seated aversion against politicians and their diplomatic mechanisms
- the equally deep seated conviction that really the heart and confidence is all that matters
- the disdain and latent suspicion of anybody with an independent mind (see above Zacharias Smith and some Ravenclaws who - despite officially being o.k. because Gryffindor - are never accosted by the trio out of their own accord, unless it is to recruit followers for the DA.)
- the blood-ideology in spite of all the lip service to the contrary - the Nazis were good at that , too, so it really should be another point all in itself.
- the decidedly lower middle-class mixture of envy and inferiority complex towards those richer and better connected ("Gold has passed hands!"). In fact, the Weasleys, (especially Molly, the twins and Ron) are the types the majority of Nazi-followers were made of.
Anything else?
no subject
Date: 2008-04-11 04:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-11 05:02 pm (UTC)That is truly disturbing because there is no difference between the two groups. Strip away the trappings of cultural cues and anyone with a brain would discover that both groups favor the same ideals. That people don't recognize this is just appalling.
The far more interesting topic would be to explore the similarities between the so-called side of Light/ the subtext and the Nazi-movement.
Yes and yes to all your points. I thought the Weasleys were reactionaries as well.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-11 07:23 pm (UTC)I don't think they mean in terms of ideals, since those are pretty much the same. I think the KKK vs Nazi debate would be more along the lines of the structure of the organization and the amount of influence it has. This would have been much more relevant before DH, which put them firmly in the Nazi category since they actually took over the government and were passing actual laws and rounding up Muggleborns through official channels.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-11 07:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-11 07:47 pm (UTC)The Nazis had a war and the Great Depression to push them over the top. Would they have been so successful without either?
This is a very painful and complex subject for everyone the world over. Which is why I hate when writers use it haphazardly in a topical fashion to make their stories deep.
From an American's perspective
Date: 2008-04-11 07:04 pm (UTC)Most neo-Nazi groups want to raise white people to superiority but they don't really know how. Instead of trying to get members or sympathetic people elected to government they just march around and hold stupid rallies. That's how I see the Death Eaters. Instead of trying to get muggleborn oppression done by political or social means, they run around in masks at the Quidditch Cup.
I'm sure this is not what JKR wanted me to think, but that's totally the vibe I got.
Re: From an American's perspective
Date: 2008-04-11 07:16 pm (UTC)These people always have a plan for their goals. It is the rest of us who enjoy secular democracy that don't plan.
This is where Rowling's allegory falls apart. She didn't understand her subject.
Re: From an American's perspective
Date: 2008-04-11 07:45 pm (UTC)Not really. I've met a few members of a local neo-Nazi group (long story but I just thought I was going to a field party) and they really don't have any long term plans for getting things done. They want to recruit members but that's as far as anything goes.
Re: From an American's perspective
Date: 2008-04-11 07:54 pm (UTC)But I understand most of them are local chapters of larger groups. Look into the connection of RJ Rushdoony and the Neo-Nazi movement. RJ Rushdoony is a big influence on some of our current "religious" leaders.
There is a lot of evidence that these groups supply most of the European Neo-Nazis with Books, pamphlets & other neo-nazi paraphernalia that is illegal. Especially in Germany.
As silly as they appear, they are still a large threat.
Re: From an American's perspective
Date: 2008-04-11 07:20 pm (UTC)Exactly. I'd say, what we are TOLD is Death Eaters are Nazi/Ku-Klux standins, but what we are SHOWN is them being the sort of brainless Neonazi thugs, reciting some racist diatribe to lend some sort of political meaning to violent acts they commit for no special reason apart from indulging in violence.
Re: From an American's perspective
Date: 2008-04-11 07:41 pm (UTC)Re: From an American's perspective
Date: 2008-04-11 08:02 pm (UTC)And while I am at it: can you explain whatthe title of this chapter means? I guess beetle refers to Rita, but what means "at bay"? Thanks!
Re: From an American's perspective
Date: 2008-04-11 08:12 pm (UTC)I'm not really sure about the title. Keeping something "at bay" usually means keeping it away from you. "The sandbags kept flood waters at bay." Maybe JKR used it to mean Rita was being kept away from writing bad things?
Re: From an American's perspective
Date: 2008-04-11 08:28 pm (UTC)Re: From an American's perspective
Date: 2008-04-11 09:15 pm (UTC)Re: From an American's perspective
Date: 2008-04-11 09:13 pm (UTC)Re: From an American's perspective
Date: 2008-04-11 11:02 pm (UTC)Re: From an American's perspective
Date: 2008-04-12 01:59 am (UTC)But I'm not confident in that etymology. It's just a guess.
Re: From an American's perspective
Date: 2008-04-12 05:43 pm (UTC)Re: From an American's perspective
Date: 2008-04-13 07:42 pm (UTC)Re: From an American's perspective
Date: 2008-04-11 07:34 pm (UTC)Re: From an American's perspective
Date: 2008-04-11 07:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-13 07:20 pm (UTC)I think it's like with the war and all the other history--a collection of things you'll recognize from the real world, but jumbled together so there's not always a consistent basis.
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Date: 2008-04-13 07:24 pm (UTC)But here it's just kind of funny how Harry has this mirror and never uses it--one could say it shows how he and Sirius' relationship has always been blocked and short-circuited, but since Harry throws it away it almost seems like the mirror shows how Harry's relationship with Sirius was always just a plot device to get him to other plot devices.
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Date: 2008-04-11 06:50 pm (UTC)You'd think others (Marietta, for instance) would be concerned about the safety of their parents, grandparents, and siblings who may work at the Ministry. But that would be too internally consistent.
Is it me, or is there also a little judgment here about how only "a few people" read the newspapers at school,
Given how horribly inaccurate the paper is shown to be, I'm not sure why it's supposed to be so bad that students are ignoring it and Hermione is supposed to be so great for reading it. Also, I'm betting most of the non-Muggleborns have someone at home who reads it and writes them about the important stuff. It has to be, because somehow everyone always knows about the stuff written in the Prophet (at least, enough to go and bother Harry when it's something about him), even though they are apparently not reading it. Most of the students probably got letters from home the next day or later that day telling them Death Eaters had escaped and to be sure to stay close to their friends at all times and to be careful in Hogsmeade etc. I think even actual Death Eaters would do this - someone like Bellatrix is dangerous even to their own side, especially if she thinks they've deserted Voldemort.
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Date: 2008-04-13 07:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-11 07:45 pm (UTC)But it never read that way to me, because Bode was so insignificant that I could never remember who he was or which side he was on, even after reading the book several times. In retrospect I suppose I should have known, because if he were a Death Eater he would be named Bodovich or Bodovsky, but I didn't think of it at the time.
sistermagpie: *Funny none of the relatives of people murdered by Death Eaters get into their new celebrity status, as I imagine a lot of regular kids would. Oh right, liking attention is for losers. Please. Kids would be falling all over themselves advertising their six degrees of separation to both the victims they never knew personally AND the Death Eaters, I'd think.
Especially the Death Eaters. When I was in sixth grade I told my friends all about how my mother's sister's husband's brother-in-law's uncle assassinated JFK.
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Date: 2008-04-13 07:28 pm (UTC)LOL!
I remember telling somebody recently how I found out my uncle sold a gun to the guy who shot all the people from that tower in Texas--they were in the Marines together and I guess sometimes they do that sort of thing with their weapons? Sometimes like that. It wasn't the gun he shot the people with though!
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Date: 2008-04-12 04:16 am (UTC)It is a bit strange that so many people are depicted as becoming alcoholics when they reach a low point in life. On that note Rita Skeeter and Trelawney are both shown in a way that makes them look low and desperate and while Hagrid is merely shown with humour. A tad of sexism, perhaps?
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Date: 2008-04-13 03:17 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-13 07:30 pm (UTC)And yeah, I can't say I had any subscriptions to the newspaper as a teenager either!
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Date: 2008-04-17 08:21 am (UTC)*You get sent to Azkaban for being an unregistered Animagus? So Harry's father belonged there? As did Sirius? Or not, because they're Harry’s Dad and his friend and had good reasons for being unregistered animagi?"
But Rita wasn't SPESHUL, she was just doing it for her own self-interest.
You know, I wrote a pre-BNF - I mean, Big Name Reporter- Rita in a fanfic once. I began to like her as a character (not as a person- difference). There's SO MUCH STUFF you can blow the Wizarding World wide open with, and we saw that side of her in DH. It's too bad she writes RPF most of the time. Wonder if there are any WW-bandfic collections? |P
And Hermione's just metagaming, silly. It's like how, when mocking badfic, I can pick out opportunities that so-called "Slytherins" should have JUMPED at, yet I wouldn't ACTUALLY ever do such a thing in real life. JKR's problem is she wants a real-life metagamer, who would fit in best in SLYTHERIN, and attached that to her RAVENCLAW (I mean, Gryffindor, of course, SHE knows where the good people are!) character, who would make a much better hypothetical-scenario metagamer. I figure that, as a chessmaster, RON would be the best "metagamer" of the three, but he seems to have too much moral fiber (I mean, he has the most compassion of the trio - who's as pale as Aberforth in DH while Hermione is a hosepipe [but she does that over ANYTHING in DH, so it doesn't count] and Harry is just REPULSED because it interferes with his Dumblewank fantasies?), and under "Informed Attributes", they're all non-manipulative people. I'd place Harry as the "tough guy", actually - a nasty little sociopath who could carry out the plans Ron formulated on the spot or the hypothetical strategies Hermione came up with months ago without any remorse.
"
*I think Harry’s going to really seem a little gay for the entire series. Even after he winds up with Ginny."
He might as well label himself "Dumbledore's Boyfriend on the Rebound". After all, Harry was Dumbledore's loyal little minion who forgave him for the Boyfriend of Doom...
"
*Funny none of the relatives of people murdered by Death Eaters get into their new celebrity status, as I imagine a lot of regular kids would. Oh right, liking attention is for losers. Please. Kids would be falling all over themselves advertising their six degrees of separation to both the victims they never knew personally AND the Death Eaters, I'd think."
Well, no offense, but I would think that would be pretty f-ing low. I was homeschooled and I'm a dense Hufflepuff/Ravenclaw, but... :P It would be REALISTIC, though. And since JKR is all about the realistic Teenagers of PMS and Doom in this book... good point. :D
"
*Harry feels his Occlumency lessons are making his problems worse, but doesn’t think to ask his teacher, Snape, "Excuse me, Professor Snape, but my attachment to Voldemort seems to be getting more pronounced with these lessons. Since Occlumency concerns the joining of minds, is there a connection?""
Well, in his defense, Snape's reaction would probably be "*HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* Only POTTER could be affected MORE BADLY AFTER training!"
"
*Harry’s happy all the DA has been inspired to work harder with the DEs escaped, "even Zacharias Smith." Um, why "even" Zacharias Smith? What's he done that would imply he’d be somehow different from the rest of the DA? ETA: Nothing, but of course Harry's right. He can smell the soul of a coward a mile away."
Yeah... all the Smith-bashing ticks me off, since I read a fanfic (the Sacrifices Arc) in which he was a wonderful, snarky, IQ-elitist bastard- sort of what many people see in Snape, but without the bitterness. I loved that Smith. And all I see in canon is Smith being bashed - then again, she bashes Ron, why do I wonder? *rolls eyes* Except for Neville, JKR seems to hate my taste in men...
no subject
Date: 2008-04-17 08:21 am (UTC)"
*I notice this because I've been thinking lately about how part of the "darkness" of the series is that it contains death, but death isn't "real" at all, which is why the audience discusses "who will die" so lightly and Sirius' death didn’t really take. It just seems like "We are tackling really Deep Themes" when it’s really more superficial. Death and racism both sometimes come across like--ooh! Big difficult topics! Followed by: Ooh! Easy, shallow answers! ETA: Yup, I'm standing by this opinion, even with all those times the earth ought to have stopped turning on its access in DH. Should have but totally didn't. Imagine that!"
*clings to my fanon* I have, in a gigantic mess of a crossover AU that was basically invented just to bash Mary-Sues and then acquired rules due to cross-referencing canons and bringing them into alignment (and developing *gasp* some actual overreaching RULES for magic for the HP section!), an afterlife in which the 'average' people all go to heaven and hell and whatnot, and those with broken magic (see Ariana, borderline for Neville, etc.) are sentenced to wander the King's-Cross-like areas forever so they can't bother the normal people who went on. It's actually a quite good metaphor for the Wizarding World if you replace "average" by "SPESHUL" and "those with broken magic" by "non-SPESHUL", come to think of it. O_o D:
I love your analysis. Finally, someone EXPLAINS why OOTP sucked so badly. (I always wondered why everyone LOVED it...) :P :DDDDDDDDDDDDDD *worships you*
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Date: 2008-04-21 12:11 am (UTC)I can totally imagine a non-speshul area for the after life. This is the reason I've always leaned towards characters like Ron or Draco who struggle wtih just being average--in some ways, of course. Neither of them is average by real world standards! In this world it almost seems like Wizards live on a totally different spiritual level. If one of Harry's parents had been a Muggle they probably wouldn't ever have been able to appear to him.
I remember being so shocked with the reaction to Smith in HBP. Here I thought okay, he bugged people but that was mostly because she wanted us to suspect him of being a traitor. But then it was like he was a genuine villain they were right to dislike--leading up to the ultimate shame of running away from the battle kicking children out of the way even though he'd earlier joined a defense army class...yeah, poor Zach. Not what I was expecting from him in DH.
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Date: 2008-04-20 07:54 pm (UTC)I really have to wonder what JKR was like as a teacher, considering all the hostility she seems to have towards things like routine classroom assessment, and enforced teaching standards for "good" people.
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Date: 2008-04-21 12:05 am (UTC)