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deathtocapslockI’m not entirely sure that this is the best place to post this essay, but as it concerns issues which we frequently comment about here, I thought I might as well share it with you. As you may be able to guess from the title, it contains my thoughts on the House system and how it connects to the politics of the wizarding world. Enjoy! :)
Theoretically, at least, the Sorting Hat sorts students based upon their innate personalities; thus, brave students go into Gryffindor, clever ones into Ravenclaw, hard-working ones into Hufflepuff and cunning ones into Slytherin. It seems unlikely, however, that this is the only – or even the main – factor in the Hat’s choice. For a start, we know that certain families tend towards certain Houses (the Weasleys all seem to be Gryffindors, for example, whilst Draco’s ancestors were apparently all in Slytherin). Family members do not all share the same personality, however, and, if personality were the main factor in the Hat’s choice, we would expect virtually every family to have members in each House. Secondly, many people seem to have been sorted into the “wrong” House; Crabbe and Goyle, for example, never display any signs of cunning or ambition, and Albus Dumbledore seems more like a Ravenclaw or Slytherin than a Gryffindor. This would be more explicable if we take the view that the main factor in students’ House choices is, in fact, their own personal preferences. The wizarding world seems fairly corporatist, and family unity is highly prized (hence, for example, the Weasleys’ anger when Percy chooses to side with the Ministry over his father), so it seems quite likely that children would have a strong preference towards being sorted into their parents’ House; this would also explain the fact that students frequently seem not to display their House’s preferred qualities to any great degree.
Wizarding politics seems to be mostly split between those who support the rights of the old Pureblood families, and those who advocate greater inclusion of Muggleborns into wizarding society and politics. This division seems to be reflected in the school House system. Slytherin House’s reputation as the home of the rich and privileged and a bastion of Pureblood supremacy suggests that it is the House of choice for pro-Purebloods; Godric Gryffindor, on the other hand, was described by Rowling as “an enlightened fighter against anti-Muggle discrimination”, suggesting that, from the beginning, his House has been associated with the pro-Muggleborns. Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff don’t seem so strongly aligned; possibly they are both halfway houses (no pun intended), containing a mixture of pro-Purebloods and pro-Muggleborns, and aligning themselves with whichever political faction currently has the upper hand.
The fact that Slytherin and Gryffindor apparently clashed over whether or not to include Muggleborns suggests that this issue has been an important one in wizarding politics for many centuries. As society’s attitudes are never static, the balance of power will probably have swung like a pendulum from one side to another, with first the Pureblood Faction, then the Muggleborn, having the upper hand. At the time of the HP novels, it seems that the pro-Muggleborns are in control; not only does Mr. Borgin complain that “wizarding blood is counting for less and less everywhere”, the alignment of Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff Houses with Gryffindor against Slytherin would make more sense if the political winds were blowing in the former’s favour. It would also explain why Voldemort’s followers mostly seem to be from Slytherin House: rich aristocrats are usually the least likely to try and overthrow the established order, having as they do the most to lose and the least to gain; if, however, they’ve felt their power and influence being eroded over the past decades, and this process seems likely to continue for the foreseeable future, they might be tempted to rise up in rebellion in order to prevent this from happening.
It seems likely that most Dark Wizards come from whichever faction is currently losing. As of the late twentieth century, this means that Voldemort and most of his supporters are from Slytherin; when the Purebloods had the most influence, Gryffindor was probably the “dark” House. Which brings us onto a certain infamous line: in PS, when Harry is worried about being sorted into Hufflepuff, Hagrid consoles him by saying that Hufflepuff is better than Slytherin, adding that “There’s not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn’t in Slytherin.” At first glance, this seems ridiculous (what, so there were literally no Dark Wizards over the past millennium who were in Gryffindor, Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw?), but it may be that Hagrid’s definition of “goin’ bad” isn’t the same as most people’s. By way of analogy to Muggle dictators, Slytherin Dark Wizards would mostly be like General Franco, trying to return the wizarding world to a mythical golden age before their society was corrupted by foreign elements. Gryffindor ones, on the other hand, would be more like communist revolutionaries, trying to overthrow those in power to create a more egalitarian society. Hagrid’s blood status makes him a natural member of the Gryffindor faction, and it seems quite likely that he would sympathise with the aims, if not the methods, of these Gryffindor Dark Wizards. If this is the case, then it may be that he doesn’t consider any Gryffindor Dark Wizard to be bad – misguided, certainly, but not evil, unlike the Slytherins, who want to keep people like him down and deny them equal rights and opportunities. From his point of view, therefore, “All bad wizards are Slytherins” might be a perfectly reasonable thing to say.
The Gryffindor House-Slytherin House hostility also makes more sense when viewed through this lens. From the Gryffindors’ point of view, the Slytherins certainly are despicable: they’re seen as stupid and ugly (and yet, at the same time, as a dangerous threat, mirroring many real-world examples of prejudice), and virtually anything they do is considered bad by default, even when, in objective terms, they’re often little worse or even better than the Gryffindors (see, for example, practically any chapter in any Harry Potter book). This would be extremely over-the-top if it were a simple example of inter-House rivalry; if seen as a continuation of a centuries-old feud, however, it seems more explicable. (As mentioned above, wizarding society is very corporatist, so it seems quite likely that children would inherit their parents’ political views.) It also explains the hatred of the Malfoys for the Weasleys: as an old Pureblood family, the Weasleys would seem to be natural Optimates (indeed, it may be that they were until a few generations ago, which would explain why they are still Pureblood despite being so pro-Muggle), and thus would be considered class traitors by the Malfoys.
We aren’t really told the Slytherin view in the books, probably because Harry aligns his world-view almost entirely with the Gryffindors. This makes the Slytherins come across as ridiculous caricatures in places; if viewed through the lens of “Harry Potter as political propaganda”, however, their characterisation starts to make more sense.
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Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
Date: 2010-10-13 01:55 pm (UTC)How could they? Most of them don't know that Tom Riddle became Voldemort. They think Riddle disappeared sometime in his 20s, while he was working at the shop, and was never seen again. And part of the reason is because Dumbles insists that they should call You-Know-Who by his real name, Voldemort.
Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
Date: 2010-10-13 03:02 pm (UTC)/How could they? Most of them don't know that Tom Riddle became Voldemort. They think Riddle disappeared sometime in his 20s, while he was working at the shop, and was never seen again. And part of the reason is because Dumbles insists that they should call You-Know-Who by his real name, Voldemort./
I was not talking about 20 year old riddle I was talking about the baby Tom being dumped in a muggle orphanage.
And I'm not expecting them to know at the moment of his birth but apparently the ministry knows when someone underage is doing magic. Is that just with a wand or is that any time?
Also how do they even find out a kid is going to go to Hogwarts? And besides How did Dumbledore know to go find young Riddle in the first place when he didn't have a wand?
I seem to remember something about the name of a kid who is magical appearing in a book at Hogwarts or something like that. But IF they can do that, shouldn't they be able to know even before the kid is going to go to Hogwarts if they're magical?
Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
Date: 2010-10-14 05:56 am (UTC)Well, as far as most people knew, that worked fantastically. He attended school, was an excellent student, became Head Boy. Too bad he decided not to run for Minister and instead got a job at that shop. What was there to learn for anyone who wasn't Albus Dumbledore? Because nobody else knew Tom destroyed at least 2 children at the orphanage, released a basilisk, killed his paternal relatives while framing his last maternal relative in the crime, etc etc.
And I'm not expecting them to know at the moment of his birth but apparently the ministry knows when someone underage is doing magic. Is that just with a wand or is that any time?
According to what Severus tells Lily, underage magic 'counts' only once they have wands, or judging from Hermione's case, only once they start some kind of schooling. It isn't clear if children's magic is noticed but ignored or whether it goes completely unnoticed. But I think the wand has to be around for the magic to register, or else it is hard to explain how nobody noticed an underage wizard was present when supposedly Morfin killed the Riddles. But if Tom left his own wand in a hiding place after he took Morfin's wand to do the deed then perhaps there was no record of underage magic.
Also how do they even find out a kid is going to go to Hogwarts? And besides How did Dumbledore know to go find young Riddle in the first place when he didn't have a wand?
According to Rowling's site there is a magical quill at Hogwarts that records all births of magical children. (Which means there was no need to dangle Neville from a window, all Algie had to do was ask Dumbledore if Neville was registered by the quill.)
Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
Date: 2010-10-14 01:00 pm (UTC)I think you are missing my point.
They still left him in a muggle orphanage, whatever he became, they knew he was there, the people in charge allowed him to remain there. I get your point on they didn't suspect him while he was being a 'model' human. But after that he became Voldemort - And people found out who he was and knew it was Tom Riddle.
DID the magical people in power learn from it? Did they take steps to make sure from then on when they realized how dumping a magical child off might affect them? Did they even look into it and consider building their own orphanage? Or did they just decide oh well it was a fluke?
Are they still just dumping magical children off on muggle doorsteps? The first think they do with Harry is dump him off.
/According to what Severus tells Lily, underage magic 'counts' only once they have wands,/
I know he says it doesn't count. That doesn't mean they don't know about it.
/r judging from Hermione's case, only once they start some kind of schooling./
I don't know what you mean by her case? Because she is muggle born? They must have known she existed.
/It isn't clear if children's magic is noticed but ignored or whether it goes completely unnoticed./
I think you answer that at the end of your post.
/But I think the wand has to be around for the magic to register,/
I think again, you answered that at the end of your post.
/or else it is hard to explain how nobody noticed an underage wizard was present when supposedly Morfin killed the Riddles. But if Tom left his own wand in a hiding place after he took Morfin's wand to do the deed then perhaps there was no record of underage magic./
It doesn't seem like it has a whole lot to do with wands because if it was just wands how do they know these kids exist - continue for answer.
/According to Rowling's site there is a magical quill at Hogwarts that records all births of magical children. (Which means there was no need to dangle Neville from a window, all Algie had to do was ask Dumbledore if Neville was registered by the quill.)/
Basicly you just answered everything right there. They are apparently knowing at birth where all the magical children are and who they are. They would have known about Tom. They would have also known about Harry and Neville. I wonder if it tells them the date the child will be born. Because one wonders how Voldemort in a whole world of people would only find 2 babies born in July. I guess the prophecy only works in a certain geographical radius (haha!) OR maybe Voldie just said, the baby surely must be an english baby. There is no way I am going to have to do battle with an inferior wizard born in Brazil or Turkey :p
They clearly would have known about Tom the moment he was born. Yet they don't seem to investigate or check on these children till they are around 10/11ish. They could have easily taken Tom right away if they'd investigated he was put in an orphanage and given him to a magical family. But hind sight is 20/20, and there is no telling if that would have made a difference in Tom's life. But there was evidence that he was troubled at the oprhange. Would it have made a difference if as a young child he would have been placed with a magical family who could help him?
It probably depends on if JKR intended him to be evil from birth. Who is to say it wasn't because his mother used a love potion to get muggle Tom - maybe the cemicals affected the baby. (shrugs)
My point isn't to do with Tom as much as the after effect. Did the ministry and Hogwarts change its opperations where magical children are concerned.
The child that suggests they didn't is Harry.
Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
Date: 2010-10-14 02:10 pm (UTC)(Yes, the WW is astonishingly lax about wizarding children in general, I get your point, and I agree. They ought to keep tabs on them and help them out. But I think oryx is pointing out that the timeline you propose for WHEN they ought to have woken up about it (due to Tom) doesn't work. Thanks to Dumbles they simply didn't know about the real effect on Tom at the point of Harry's placement, so there was nothing for them to have 'learned better' about at that particular point in time, I'm saying. One would hope they did better after learning about Tom, but that's not something really covered in the books' timespan. So we just don't know.)
Again, RE Harry, there is no 'they' who dump Harry off. The blame for this goes squarely on Dumbles' shoulders - most of the WW had NO IDEA what happened to Harry after Halloween 1981 because Dumbles snatched him up and did as he pleased with the kid. And consciously kept people from knowing (all in the name of the kid's safety, of course.../sarcasm). I'm willing to bet that even if there had been established oversight for orphaned kids and methods of dealing with them beyond giving them to surviving magical relatives, Dumbles would have circumvented them in order to have Harry raised as he did. (It certainly gave him a nice loyal, unquestioning little soldier.) In his case the WW or 'Hogwarts' as a whole really isn't to blame, IMHO. Dumbledore alone is.
Oryx's point about Hermione I think is based on the claim that Hermione makes in PS/SS that she was testing spells out after she got her wand but before she actually started Hogwarts.
Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
Date: 2010-10-14 04:25 pm (UTC)Okay, I didn't realize nobody else knew, I thought more people than just a few knew, especially after he went after the Potters, for whatever reason I was under the impression people would have found out or the info got out that he was once Tom. What about the Ministry or other OOTP?
I don't understand why that would have been keep that a secret?
/And Dumbledore kept the truth about Tom secret, by encouraging people to think of 'Voldemort' as his TRUE NAME/
But Dumbledore is determined to call him Tom in that meeting when Tom comes looking for the DADA job. That would have been...my guess is in the 70's but I don't know if anyone ever figured out when exactly that meeting happened. I seem to remember someone had said in the 70's - that was when he also supposedly hid the ravenclaw crown. Well, I'm guessing it would have more than likely before he started trying to dominate, so one would guess the early 70's when was when the first war started...at least I think.
/So drawing conclusions based on HARRY'S placement alone doesn't work/
Okay I still don't understand why keep Voldies real identity a secret.
And I can't remember this either, Did anyone else know where Harry was placed? Say someone like Snape or other people or was it just DD and obviously Minerva and Hagrid. What about the Lastrange and Bellatrix? Because it's said that they got put into Azkaban after Voldie fell becuse they attacked the Longbottoms and the reason they attacked the longbottoms never made sense to me. If I remember rightly they were said to have attacked the longbottoms because they were trying to find out what happend or where Voldemort went.
This never made sense because wouldn't Bellatrix have already been on the list of DE to hunt down? And I don't really understand why Bellatrix and other DE would go after the Longbottoms...
wait...Unless did they assume Voldemort had went after Neville instead of Harry?
But I think the attack on the Longbottoms was said to have happened a while after Voldie disappeared, it was made out to be time had passed, etc.
Anyway off topic but I guess it all sorta ties into me trying to understand why the Voldemorts true identity would have been kept a secret.
/But I think oryx is pointing out that the timeline you propose for WHEN they ought to have woken up about it (due to Tom) doesn't work./
I just dont' understand why it would have been a secret about Tom, thats why I am confused. Either way again with Dumbledore, I am just not figuring out what point he had in keeping it a secret when earlier he had been determined to call him Tom.
I'm wondering, was he already suspecting of the Horcuxes connection with Harry. I do remember having these discussions about when DD knew about the horcuxes.
Right after Lily died and DD is telling Snape, he insists to Severus that Voldemort would be back. I'm trying to figure out, how DD knew that? How did he make that assumption so quickly?
And be it Tom or anyone else, I still don't understand the idea of leaving magical children in a muggle orphanage, especially considering magic is supposed to be hidden from muggles. So, I still can't figure that out because...meh, I guess it really doesn't matter.
/Oryx's point about Hermione I think is based on the claim that Hermione makes in PS/SS that she was testing spells out after she got her wand but before she actually started Hogwarts./
When did she get her wand? Wouldn't it have been after she went shopping for it? there is a lot I've clearly forgotten. But in terms of her having a wand she wouldn't have got it at age 7, it would have been after her letter from Hogwarts right?
Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
Date: 2010-10-14 07:36 pm (UTC)You'd have thought that the Ministry would have known; given their general level of competence, however, it wouldn't be surprising if they didn't.
"I don't understand why that would have been keep that a secret?"
Well, no doubt Dumbledore had his own inscrutable reasons... Possibly having something to do with the fact that, if people feared Voldemort less (and it's easier to be scared of Big Bad Lord Voldemort than little Tommy Riddle), they might start getting dangerous ideas, e.g., that they can get along without Twinkly running everything.
"And I can't remember this either, Did anyone else know where Harry was placed? Say someone like Snape or other people or was it just DD and obviously Minerva and Hagrid. What about the Lastrange and Bellatrix? Because it's said that they got put into Azkaban after Voldie fell becuse they attacked the Longbottoms and the reason they attacked the longbottoms never made sense to me. If I remember rightly they were said to have attacked the longbottoms because they were trying to find out what happend or where Voldemort went."
The books are quite inconsistent on this point. On the one hand, random wizards walk up to Harry in the street to shake his hand; on the other, no DE ever tries to kill/capture Harry at home.
"This never made sense because wouldn't Bellatrix have already been on the list of DE to hunt down? And I don't really understand why Bellatrix and other DE would go after the Longbottoms...
wait...Unless did they assume Voldemort had went after Neville instead of Harry?"
I'd never thought of that, but it's actually quite a good idea.
"When did she get her wand? Wouldn't it have been after she went shopping for it? there is a lot I've clearly forgotten. But in terms of her having a wand she wouldn't have got it at age 7, it would have been after her letter from Hogwarts right?"
Right, but there'd still be a few weeks before her getting her wand and actually starting out for Hogwarts.
Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
Date: 2010-10-14 09:03 pm (UTC)Because while there is a system for recording the births of magikal children in the UK, there seemingly is no corresponding system of recording the deaths of magikal people.
So even if someone was periodically noting the most recent updates to the Hogwarts Birth Book, all they would have seen was that Merope Gaunt had recently given birth to a son named Tom Riddle. There was no corresponding notice that Merope Gaunt had subsequently died, therefore leaving her son an orphan.
But in terms of her having a wand she wouldn't have got it at age 7, it would have been after her letter from Hogwarts right?
Correct. Hermione, the little eager beaver that she is, would have hectored her parents to get her all her supplies and books immediately upon receiving the Hogwarts letter, so she would have had at least a month, maybe even two, to have played around with spells before leaving for Hogwarts.
Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
Date: 2010-10-15 03:25 am (UTC)Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
Date: 2010-10-15 09:03 am (UTC)Ouu, now we know why she is so much better than everyone else! I never even thought about that and forgot she was a late Sept baby.
However that doesn't mean she got her letter in Sept. I was thinking the letters for the next years students all went out at the same time during the summer. So Minerva probably wouldn't have sent Hermione's letter till the same time she sent Harry's, Ron's, Draco's, Neville's, etc. etc. I don't think Hermione would have specially got her letter earlier than the rest of her class would she??
JKR might excuse that by saying that underage wand magic outside school by saying Hermione was covered because she had her letter. So if anyone were to show up and ask or question why there was magic coming out of a muggle house, they'd look and I guess see she was a Hogwarts student.
But it still doesn't explain anything really because if they let Hogwarts kids doing homework and Hermione doing spellwork with a wand outside of school then why is there a restriction on underage magic? I have never understood the restriction on underage magic. If you have been given a wand then what is the big deal? I is like the state is controling magical children instead of the parents. Do parents confiscate kids wands when they get home or something? I haven't seen that happen, so why is JKR putting this silly rule into effect. If the Ministry can track magic, then if a kid is doing something bad they'll get caught and if you really think about it are the kids any more wandhappy than some of the adults in the series.
So I am really not sure why JKR felt a need to put in a underage magic outside school rule in the book.
The wand is mainly used to focus the magic right? Magic people still have the ability to do some magic without a wand. We have seen some that have the ability to do wandless and wordless magic.
Some of the Kids seem to be able to do wandless magic before school. It is unfocused in some cases or an accident but there is no doubt from canon we have characters that are underage able to exhibit magic, such as:
teleportation/apparation (I think I remember younger Harry was getting bullied at school and somehow ended up on the school roof)
Bounching after a fall out a window (Didn't Nevilles uncle drop him out of a high window and he bounced?)
Object manipulation (Severus made a tree limb drop on petunia and Lily made a flower do a funky petal dance)
Flight/levetation without broom (Lily off a swing set)
Those are just some that I can remember and none of that is minor tiny insignifigant magic either, especially Harry reapearing on a roof and Lily practically flying.
That seems more powerful than some of the stuff they do with wands.
Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
From:Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
From:Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
From:Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
From:Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
Date: 2010-10-15 01:47 pm (UTC)Not sure what they did in OOTP when the DADA position was filled in late August, nor in DH.
Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
Date: 2010-10-15 01:44 pm (UTC)If more of Albus' associates had known, Ginny would have known to suspect a diary by one TM Riddle.
The sad thing is, I don't think even Hagrid knows that the Slytherin prefect, later Head Boy, who 'helped' him hide his pet Acromantula (why was Aragog kept in the dungeons?) only to hand him in later, was Voldemort.
I'm wondering, was he already suspecting of the Horcuxes connection with Harry. I do remember having these discussions about when DD knew about the horcuxes.
Right after Lily died and DD is telling Snape, he insists to Severus that Voldemort would be back. I'm trying to figure out, how DD knew that? How did he make that assumption so quickly?
If he is truthful in OOTP when he tells Harry he placed him with the Dursleys because of blood-protection related to Lily's sacrifice then he knew that Voldemort was hit by his own AK. Which means he knew Harry's scar was not a curse scar. Yet he lets people (Minerva in PS, Fudge in GOF) assume that it is. The fact that Voldemort survived his own AK (which Albus could learn from Severus' Dark Mark but also is something he would believe because that's what the prophecy says, it foretells at least 2 Tom/Harry encounters) is proof that he had (at least) a Horcrux. I think by the moment Albus held Harry he knew what the scar was, or else why misdirect people about it?
Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
Date: 2010-10-14 02:15 pm (UTC)Not true. Dumbledore knew. Slughorn knew (but then he realized in Tom's school days that Tom was up to no good). His early supporters, the ones who knew him as Voldemort at school knew. But nobody else knew him in both roles. The Weasleys and Minerva get told at the end of COS. And the main reason so few people knew is because Dumbledore was hiding it from them.
I don't know what you mean by her case? Because she is muggle born? They must have known she existed.
She says on the train that all the spells she tried worked, which means she was doing wandwork between the time she got her letter (late July?) and September 1st with no interference.
Because one wonders how Voldemort in a whole world of people would only find 2 babies born in July.
By reading the birth announcements in the Prophet?
Look, you are confusing 2 things - knowing where a magical child is before he attends school and knowing where underage magic is performed. They are different things. Hogwarts registers the former, the Ministry registers the latter.
Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
Date: 2010-10-14 04:37 pm (UTC)/
I didn't realize nobody else knew. And I don't understand why that would have been kept a secret.
It still don't get why magical people leave magical children in muggle orphanages. Especially since they know about them from birth. The quill at hogwarts, is supposed to be from birth or when they are born.
Sounds like...it just sounds like something funny is going on and I can't figure it out. Especially why keep Tom's identiy a secret.
/She says on the train that all the spells she tried worked, which means she was doing wandwork between the time she got her letter (late July?) and September 1st with no interference./
hum, I don't think I have as much of a problem with that, because she would have gotten her letter so, anyone looking at magic coming from her location would maybe have the list handy of students.
Wait, don't they get sent home with homework over the summer. I'm thinking I remember Harry grumbling about doing a potions essay over the summer...humm
If he gets potion homework then mighten the children also get stuff like Charms homework over summer to or Transfigurations? That would have required a wand outside of Hogwarts wouldn't it? Wasn't harry practicing spells under his covers in the movie?? I don't like mixing movie with book a lot but I'm trying to remember if there are any examples of kids doing work with wands outside of school for school.
//Because one wonders how Voldemort in a whole world of people would only find 2 babies born in July.//
/By reading the birth announcements in the Prophet?/
No, what I mean is, Voldie is not getting newspapers from around the world is he? What that means is everyone around the world who is magical uses the prophet to announce their childs birth.
I'm saying there has to be some other babies born at the end of July around the world. Neville and Harry are just in England. What about the USA or China or...whatever - couldn't there possibly have been some other magical kid born somewhere outside of england.
I know the prophet has birth announcements, even Snape's birth got announced.
Voldemort was not looking outside of England for a magical birth I guess. I doubt some magical family in the USA is putting a birth announcement in the english Daily Prophet, unless its the only magical newspaper in the world or something.
/Look, you are confusing 2 things - knowing where a magical child is before he attends school and knowing where underage magic is performed. They are different things. Hogwarts registers the former, the Ministry registers the latter./
Look...at...me...
So in other words the headmaster isn't telling anyone where magical children are born? Yet the Ministry knows about Underage magic?
Sounds like they both know the same thing, unless the Ministry is waiting till after kids get Hogwarts letters. Cause either they do or don't know when signs of underage magic are happening.
Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
Date: 2010-10-15 01:20 pm (UTC)How would they know? At school Tom used his made-up name only in front of very close associates, at least some of whom later became DEs, and if there were any who did not, they kept silent for their own safety. When Tom came back he had a new face and he just presented himself with his new name. Very few of those who weren't his close associates at school made the connection.
Especially why keep Tom's identiy a secret.
Well, the person keeping the secret is Twinkly. The guy who met Tom at the orphanage and didn't warn anyone about him. Who suspected Tom released the basilisk and framed Hagrid, but said nothing, not even that Tom was a Parselmouth. Dear Twinkletoes had a lot to be ashamed of and he didn't want what he knew leaking out or someone would wonder how much of he was responsible for the Voldemort crisis.
hum, I don't think I have as much of a problem with that, because she would have gotten her letter so, anyone looking at magic coming from her location would maybe have the list handy of students.
Yes, but she seems to have gotten no warnings from the Ministry. Remember this was pre-troll Hermione, the one who cared about rules. So either the Ministry does not follow the magic of kids who have yet to start school or ignores it.
If he gets potion homework then mighten the children also get stuff like Charms homework over summer to or Transfigurations?
The only summer homework we know about is written work. They are not allowed to do any kind of magic outside school. Though in PS it seems they only get warned about it just before they leave for the summer, nobody seems to warn the kids who haven't started school yet.
I'm saying there has to be some other babies born at the end of July around the world.
But did any of their parents defy Voldemort 3 times? We don't know where Voldemort was hanging out the 10 years he was gone after killing Hepzibah, but if nobody who defied him in those years managed to do iy 3 times and live to have children then Britain was the only place to care about.
So in other words the headmaster isn't telling anyone where magical children are born? Yet the Ministry knows about Underage magic?
We have no evidence that the Ministry knows about underage magic of kids who haven't entered Hogwarts yet.
Look, secrecy from Muggles is such a big deal, yet nobody came to Obliviate the kids at Harry's school when he mistakenly levitated to the roof or turned his teacher's wig blue. So I think the Ministry doesn't know, until some point, which is at the very least until the kids receive their letters, or maybe until they start using wands.
Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
Date: 2010-10-15 01:48 pm (UTC)I think I was talking about after, not while he was at school and keeping his special name secret.
/Very few of those who weren't his close associates at school made the connection./
I get that but I really wasn't thinking about pre-Voldemort days but I was probably mixing it all in with my post and confused it. I was thinking after and I wasn't thinking it was a secret.
/Well, the person keeping the secret is Twinkly. The guy who met Tom at the orphanage/
Yea, I just posted a reply to someone else where I wondered if that was the only possible reason it was kept a secret. But then when Voldemort came back to the school for the job (changed as he was) Dumbledore was very insistant on calling him Tom - so what changed in that meeting to make him start using Voldemort?
(On a side note and I'm putting this rant in after I've written this reply: In a way this just seems like the canon confusion pit. JKR claims to have had the whole story etched out...kinda making it sound sometimes like she knew all the bits already. But on some level I just don't believe her. I think she had the general idea of what she wanted the plot to be but all the other bits - some of them seem filled in and she didn't keep track of stuff like say: Dumbledore insisting on calling Voldemort Tom in a memory scene written later - but forgetting that Dumbledore in scene one book one insisted on calling him Voldemort. It just seems like JKR didn't really have all her ducks in a row when she actually sat down and wrote out and filled in all the details to the original plot she had in mind)
In the very first book Dumbledore is insistant that everyone use the name Voldemort because he doesn't see any harm, but it's interesting that Dumbledore is shown in a memory to be insisting on calling Voldie, Tom to his face. I just don't understand the change or why, I guess it was just to tweek Voldie but to me wouldn't it have been easier on everyone had they used the name Tom, not to mention the name was fixed so if you said it DE would come get you.
Again I still don't get why Dumbledore hid this fact about Voldemort and the only thing I can come up with is because he went to the orphanage but I have a hard time seeing that as a valid reason for Dumbledore, who didn't have a problem defying the ministry orders.
/But did any of their parents defy Voldemort 3 times? We don't know where Voldemort was hanging out the 10 years he was gone after killing Hepzibah, but if nobody who defied him in those years managed to do iy 3 times and live to have children then Britain was the only place to care about./
Now it makes sense, Good point I forgot about the defied 3 times.
/Look, secrecy from Muggles is such a big deal, yet nobody came to Obliviate the kids at Harry's school when he mistakenly levitated to the roof or turned his teacher's wig blue. So I think the Ministry doesn't know, until some point, which is at the very least until the kids receive their letters, or maybe until they start using wands./
It sounds stupid to me as to when/how they are tracking magic because it doesn't seem to do them much good with Voldemort and the death eaters. So I'm going to assume it is the wands they are using to track people but that kinda doesn't make a lot of sense either because here it's been pointed out that Hermione is doing magic with a wand out of school before she even gets to Hogwarts. Perhaps it is just because it's right before the students first year and they might assume they'd do magic.
Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
From:Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
From:Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
Date: 2010-10-14 05:02 pm (UTC)And I'm just wondering something again. Didn't DD go before the Wizimunger or (I don't remember how it's spelled) he was head of it at one time I thought. That court thing they have at the Ministry.
Didn't he testify before it about Severus; I remember him saying to the assembled court that he had already given information about Severus was working for the 'good side'
I'm curious, did he keep Voldemorts real idenity as Tom from them?
He gave them info on Snape, wouldn't he have imparted some information on Voldemort to that council/court - especially considering I think he was a member of it.
Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
Date: 2010-10-15 09:32 am (UTC)Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
Date: 2010-10-15 01:22 pm (UTC)I don't mean he told the Wizimonger (or however it's spelled) when he was talking about Snape or that telling them about Snape meant he also told them about Tom. I'm saying it's a point that Dumbledore was head of this high ruling council/court of people in the wizarding world. They had this meeting where he apparently gave evidence that Snape was a spy.
If it was a meeting with these people about the war, I would have expected them to talk about more things than Severus. It isn't clear that Severus was ever on trial, it almost seems like Dumbledore took the initiative to inform them of Snape actually being on the good side before Voldemort fell.
Although all of this is speculation - I mean he could have given Snape's story earlier before Karkaroff was brought in, hell maybe Snape was brought in to - but I don't get that from what I read. I think he said something about He (Dumbledore) had already given evidence to Snape's loyalties, etc.
The way I remember it being worded it makes it sound like the info on Severus was at another meeting sometime before Karkaroff's trial because it seems like he's reminding the assembled group. Again I'd have to go back and read the exact text again but it just seems to me Dumbledore would have at least told 'those' people info on Tom being Voldemort.
I'm just still not getting why he needed to keep that info about Voldemort a secret.
The only thing I can get out of it is Dumbledore would have been ashamed because he was the one that went to get Tom at the orphanage.
I just never really got that it was a secret from everyone and I guess I missed that in my reading that nobody knew till later that Tom was in fact Voldemort. I just never picked up on that. The only thing I picked up on was that Harry and kids really didn't know till COS and I guess I just missed it that everyone else was clueless about Voldemort true identity.
Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
From:Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
Date: 2010-10-21 03:30 am (UTC)Oh, wow! I totally hadn't picked up on that, jeez! IDEK, then, how does the Trace fit in, I thought it was some automatic thing that underage wizards had, but obviously not, if Hermione was able to get away with practicising magic on her lonesome. O.o No wonder she was so proficient with spellwork when she turned up in PS/SS, she had a year not only to read the books but try to learn the spells as well!
Although...I will never get how magic is supposed to be hard- they just have to point their wand and say a word, but it's more difficult than that? Like, Harry spends twenty chapters struggling with 'accio', only to miraculously achieve it in time not to die a fiery crispy death. He had less trouble with the Patronus, although we're told that's super advanced. IDK. *eyeroll*
Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
Date: 2010-10-21 01:32 pm (UTC)It's another example of JKR not knowing her own story. I mean, some of these are mistakes anyone can make but sometimes I wonder if she goes in later and adds stuff because people ask questions.
Like I would ask her: How can Hermione be so effective with magic and was never around it but Ron is as stupid as Harry but should have seen most of this simple magic on a daily basis already.
It's like maybe she writes a chapter and realizes, opps people are gonna question this so, I'll have hermione say she practices. Okay, books finished off to the editor.
One would assume a good editor would say, hay you've got Hermione saying she did wand magic outside of school but later you have here that it's prohibited for the kids to do that.
It's almost like someone should have caught that, it qualifies almost as a fanfic quality sort of error. And thats not a slight against fanfics in no way I'm just saying this is stuff a good beta will call you on and you'd expect people making $$ at this would find stuff like that.
Does anyone remember the flack that happened with the Half-Blood Prince book. Where some of Dumbledore's speech was apparently different in the USA version - I think something was left in it that was supposed to be taken out. I think it was the line about Dumbledore talking about hiding the Malfoy and that nobody would look for them if everyone thought they were dead (not exact quote but it went something like that)
Though not exactly sure if that was the paragraph, sentance that was left in accidently. But it kind of really makes you wonder how much of JKR's book is actually her book and how much of it is pieced together by bad editors and WB. Because after a certain point it makes you wonder how much the movies and movie people might have influenced her writing. I'm not suggesting that someone came in and wrote it for her, but she became involved with the movie stuff even before her series was finished.
Even if she says there was no influence and that she 'knew' the story and everything about it from the beginning - I still have to sort of question that and wonder if she's being 100% truthful in how she actually wrote the story.
And I'm sorta rambling now so I have multiple thoughts on Hermione suggesting she did magic outside of school - I just believe this is something JKR didn't think about while writing or she went in later to correct it when she realized how goofy it seems for Hermione to be so exceptionally good at magic but then didn't think about what adding that line meant to her whole 'can't do magic outside school law'
Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
Date: 2010-10-21 02:12 pm (UTC)She sort of works around this at the end of PS, when the kids get notes warning them not to use magic over the holidays, and Fred says he always hoped the school would forget to do so. The letter the kids get before 1st year has no such warning, so Hermione started practicing the moment she had a book and a wand, but after being at Hogwarts she learned she was not supposed to do magic outside school. So maybe the Ministry starts its monitoring after the kids start school or something. But then in DH it turns out kids are allowed to be educated at home too, so do such kids get monitored or not? (Maybe it doesn't matter, because they obviously have magical adults around them, but what if they sneak out of home and go into a Muggle environment - would anyone notice them doing magic?)
Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
From:Hermione's letter (was: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...)
From:Re: Hermione's letter
From:Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
Date: 2010-10-22 01:08 am (UTC)YES. I totally think that's the case- she tries to be too clever and winds up screwing over her own story and characters. (My worst moment was with what she had Hermione do to her parents- like, who ever spends any time thinking about the Grangers? Nobody would've cared! But then she decides to address it by having Hermione just mentally violate her parents, okay then)
How can Hermione be so effective with magic and was never around it but Ron is as stupid as Harry but should have seen most of this simple magic on a daily basis already
THANK YOU. I tried to raise this question on the HP common room and people called me racist? IDEK! My point was that Ron acts a lot dumber than he ought considering he's a native of the wizarding world and should know more about magic and should know about Muggle-repelling and Unplottable charms and international schools like Durmstrang, etc. and it makes no sense to have him clueless on things that belong to his world. I always wanted Ron to be the bridge between Harry & Hermione and the wizarding world and clue them in, but it's Hermione, the newcomer, who's inexplicably Exposition Girl.
One would assume a good editor would say, hay you've got Hermione saying she did wand magic outside of school but later you have here that it's prohibited for the kids to do that.
I'm just saying this is stuff a good beta will call you on and you'd expect people making $$ at this would find stuff like that.
Considering that she never re-reads her own books and that she got rid of her editors halfway through the series and wasn't paying much attention to them before...no wonder it's all messed up.
I just believe this is something JKR didn't think about while writing or she went in later to correct it when she realized how goofy it seems for Hermione to be so exceptionally good at magic but then didn't think about what adding that line meant to her whole 'can't do magic outside school law'
Entirely plausible. *nodnod*
Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
Date: 2010-10-14 08:40 pm (UTC)Basicly you just answered everything right there. They are apparently knowing at birth where all the magical children are
No, they only know the children who are recorded in the Hogwarts book, because presumably said children will receive an invitation to attend Hogwarts in 11 years time.
Doesn't say whether anyone's actually reading the entries until the year a group of kids are to start attending; I get the feeling that actually no on is perusing the book on any sort of periodic basis.
And since it is a Hogwarts book -- not a Registry of Births at the MoM, for instance -- then it implies the list is very narrow in scope. It only records those children who will eventually attend Hogwarts, nothing else. Which means it wouldn't even have all of the magikal children of Europe listed, as presumably Beauxbaton and Durmstrang would have their own list of births for students who would eventually attend those schools.
And it leaves open the rest of the whole wide wizarding world -- Hogwarts wouldn't be registering births in the Americas, the Far East, India, Africa, etc.
It's a black logic hole that Rowling obviously didn't consider, because what happens to a magikal kid in the UK who's born to Muggle parents and whose name is registered in the Hogwarts book -- but like you point out, no one from the wizarding world gives the parents a clue? What happens if that family moves to the U.S. or Japan when the kid's 8?
Re: don't mind me, got a little carried away here...
Date: 2010-10-14 11:48 pm (UTC)Sorry I meant all the magical children in England. I wasn't thinking all of them everywhere with that comment.
I was only thinking all the children all over the world in terms of, what if there is some little boy born same day as Harry in...I don't know. Canada.
I know this is way silly speculation and the Propehcy was fulfilled by Voldemort himself - but I find it interesting that he decided to only narrow it down to two boys born in England.
The mystery canadian boy born july 31st 1980 and his family move to England and...I guess he's SOL for getting into Hogwarts, but in another way his parents later find out they are lucky that Voldemort never knew about him! =p