(no subject)

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

Am I the only one a little bothered by Dumbledore? Not only with the fact he could end up in the Guinness Book Of World Records for "Most Incompetent Headmaster of All Time" (though I'm sure there's worse. :P), but also because...he just bugs me. I know JKR was trying to write him as the "flawed Yoda", so to speak (and to be fair, he's nowhere near Yoda. XD), but it's also how...preachy he gets. Towards Fudge, for example. You know, in Goblet of Fire, with, "You place too much importance on purity of blood, yadda yadda et cetera et cetera" -- which considering how he treated Tom Riddle and the Slytherins is...slightly hypocritical isn't it? Probably bad writing on JKR's part, though. :/

Anyways, sorry 'bout the rambling. Thoughts?

Comments

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

*This*, just this! :)

Seriously, I think Obi-Wan and Yoda would consider Dumbledore's treatment of Harry on par with the idiot teacher who told his students World War III had broken out and set off fireworks and sirens to boot. I can just picture Anakin, Obi-Wan and Yoda, watching from the afterlife, probably sipping a few beers (or juma, in the GFFA. :P) and then...

ANAKIN: Did...did he just...did he just do *that*?! *Sighs* Looks like you're off the hook for the Operation Set My Own Son Up To Kill Me plan, Obi-Wan.

(After Dumbledore basically sets up Harry to commit suicide)

What do you think? :)

[sunnyskywalker]

Dumbledore should have read the chapters on "Signs That the Magic Kid Is Bad News and How to Get Him Therapy Before He Becomes a Dark Lord" and "How to Prevent Dark Lord Damage Without Being a Manipulative Jerk" in Mentors Incorporated: Learning from Our Mistakes that Yoda and Obi-Wan photocopied for him. But he didn't feel like doing his homework. At least now he'll literally be able to write the (sequel) book with more "what not to do" examples than you can shake a stick at.

[darth-eldritch.livejournal.com]

Considering that Rowling actually used the term "dark side" at least twice in the series, yes.

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

I think that she also used the term "light side," too, didn't she?

[darth-eldritch.livejournal.com]

I really don't remember, but it wouldn't surprise me if she did.

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

XD

Okay, the idea of Obi-Wan and Yoda doing something like that is *freaking awesome*. XD

[sunnyskywalker]

Qui-Gon started outlining the project during those years of watching from Blue Ghostie Land and handed them their assignments as soon as they showed up. :D He also wrote the introduction, in which he advises mentors that if their chosen one/potential dark lord is really attached to his mom, fine, cut the apron strings, but leaving her in slavery and not trying to free any more slaves ever because you're too busy with politics to do good deeds is not likely to make him trust you.

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

So very true. XD

(Seriously, that kind of bugged me too. :/)

Good old Qui-Gon...coming to save the day -- sort of. :)

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

If anything, that could have been one of the reasons why Anakin grew to resent the Jedi and eventually turned against them. But no, the ultimate reason for his fall was a nightmare and not being promoted to Master. *sighs*

What bothered me wasn't just the Jedi's indifferent negligence regarding Anakin's mother, but just the overall treatment of slavery in the prequels. If written properly, Anakin's life as a slave could have served as a foundation for his later beliefs regarding the role of the Jedi and the role of the Empire. Slavery on Tatooine could have also been the reason for why Obi-Wan was on Tatooine in the first place.

But no, all slavery amounts to in the prequels is an excuse for Anakin to show off his podracing skills so that Qui-Gon can free him and an excuse for Anakin to lose his mother and then angst. After "The Phantom Menace," the Jedi just magically forget about Anakin's mother for ten years, even though they could have gone back to Tatooine, bought Shmi, and made sure that she was safe somewhere so that Anakin wouldn't be so worried about her. But they - and the script - just forgot about her and no concrete reason is given for why they did. And Anakin's life as a slave is never brought up again either.

Sorry for the rant, but that was just one of the major reasons for why I didn't like the Jedi in the prequels and why I thought that the prequels themselves were sorely lacking.

[darth-eldritch.livejournal.com]

As much criticism I have of Yoda, and so do a lot of people, I decided somewhere in middle of rereading the entire Harry Potter series that Dumbledore at his best is far worst than Yoda could ever be. (Remember it was Yoda that told Obi-Wan the lie that Vader was no longer Skywalker, that Anakin Skywalker is dead, just to get Obi-Wan to get moving on stopping Anakin at Mustafar after Obi-Wan protested. Obi-Wan clung to that lie and passed it on to Luke.)

Dumbledore is just, ugh. What makes it worse is how Rowling kept having Dumbledore make all these freakin' confessions to Harry in later books in response to what criticism must have been out there all ready, and it only made it worst, made Dumbledore more cynical, more manipulative.

[sunnyskywalker]

At least Yoda didn't let monsters and Sith run around the Jedi Temple with the younglings for months on end every year, and made them wear helmets during weapons practice. Or let in a kid who'd already tortured some other kids and killed pets, and not tell anyone about the danger so they can try to help the kid or at least contain him. With Tom, Dumbledore did the equivalent of training an Anakin who's already suspected of murdering Tusken children. Failing to recognize when a kid is troubled and get some real help for him, and then telling a useful lie when things go south, pales in comparison.

[darth-eldritch.livejournal.com]

Yes! Good comparison!!!

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

Very true, sunny. Very true. (Can I call you that?)

[sunnyskywalker]

Sure!

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

And from a certain point of view, what Yoda said was true: Anakin basically died when he pledged himself to Palpatine. It really took Luke to make him come to his senses. (It's very sad, really)

Dumbledore...didn't really have an excuse. YMMV, naturally, but I think Dumbledore was just being a turd to Tom for the sake of being a turd to Tom. 'Nuff said. :/

[darth-eldritch.livejournal.com]

Agree.

Obi-Wan clung to that as literal truth to keep his sanity, I think.

Dumbledore had no excuse whatsoever, yes. There was something seriously wrong with him.

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

So Obi-Wan was mostly going through the Five Stages of Grief? Not only does it make what happens to Anakin all the more heartbreaking, but it makes sense. I can just picture Obi-Wan kind of curled up in the fetal position, muttering, a la Topher from DOLLHOUSE, "I know what I know, I know what I know..." Seriously, *ouch*.

But Dumbledore...Dumbledore knew what would happen to Tom. And he basically set the little bastard loose on the school anyway.

I think Dumbledore's Start of Darkness really occurred after the whole Grindelwald fiasco. Stuff like that can really break a man, methinks. (YMMV)

[sunnyskywalker]

Plus, while it certainly isn't nice, and it doesn't look like he and Obi-Wan realized exactly how many ways they had messed up, you could at least argue that Yoda was right about the need to convince everyone that Anakin was a lost cause and killing Vader was the only option, at least from a strategic standpoint. Good for Luke for proving him wrong, and risking himself to save someone's soul (in GFFA terms) is pretty heroic... but from the standpoint of everyone else in the galaxy, practically speaking it didn't matter whether Vader was sorry before he died on the Death Star II.

As for Dumbledore, even if he initially reacted in panic mode when he first met Tom ("Ack, my dark past has come back to haunt me in this kid!"), he had seven years to think about it and try a different strategy. Plus, he suspected Tom of Myrtle's death in Tom's fifth year, and Tom started flashing that Peverell ring the next year, right? Dumbledore could have put the pieces together (Peverell > Gaunt > Riddles) before Tom graduated and at least tried to prove to the Ministry that Morfin's memory had been altered, and tried to get some solid evidence against Tom for something. But he doesn't tell Harry, "Tom skipped town and became Voldemort just before I got him, darn!" But it seems like he was just sitting back watching.

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

*Sighs*

*This*, so very much! :D

Seriously, for a "Machivellian" (?) genius, Dumbledore's really a dumbass. DX

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

Weeeelll, I take issue with what Rowling has to say about what Horcrux came from what murder, because I seriously doubt that you can turn a Diary into a Horcrux and then continue to make *entries* into it. All of the visions that the Diary revenant showed Harry took place *after* Myrtle was killed.

And acto Albus, Tom had already killed his family the summer *before* he killed Myrtle, so he ought to have already had the Ring, even though Rowling hadn't thought of that yet, so she never showed Tom wearing a Ring until book 6.

But the issue of the Ring was further complicated by the fact that it was incised with the symbol of the Hallows Questers, and all sorts of pieces of trumpery were likely to be decked out in that. He had no way of knowing that the Ring Tom was flashing about was any more significant than old Xeno Lovegood's broach.

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

"What makes it worse is how Rowling kept having Dumbledore make all these freakin' confessions to Harry in later books in response to what criticism must have been out there all ready, and it only made it worst, made Dumbledore more cynical, more manipulative."

I know, right? It definitely adds a degree of Fridge Horror on top of that -- Dumbledore's kind of manipulating Harry the way he is because he hasn't really gotten over the...Grindelwald thing. (Sorry if I'm mentioning it too much, BTW. :) Sort of an, "If I can't be loved, no one will!" thing. Pretty scary. :/

[darth-eldritch.livejournal.com]

Well. that Grindelwald thing made Dumbledore much what he is. True.

Yeah, even Force spirits need Juma to deal with this fail!

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

"Well. that Grindelwald thing made Dumbledore much what he is. True."

I wish JKR had explored it a little more. It would definitely be more chilling and tragic than a simple He Got Better after nearly trying to take over the world with his old friend/lover. (Tragic for Grindelwald as well, because I think he genuinely loved Dumbles...even if he didn't really realize it until the end. /is a tad sentimental. :)

"Yeah, even Force spirits need Juma to deal with this fail!"

XD

That needs to be iconned. Now. XD XD

Seriously, though, I can picture Anakin putting on the Barenaked Ladies during the "King's Cross" chapter:

ANAKIN: Oh, juma...I drink to your health.

OBI-WAN: I haven't seen you this traumatized since we saw LOVE AMONGST THE GUNGANS.

ANAKIN: Shaddit, Obi-Wan...

[darth-eldritch.livejournal.com]

Yoda was at least well intentioned and he did care for the younglings. Yoda was rarely deliberatly manipultive. He did what he thought best within his knowledge what was best.

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

Very true. :)

I didn't exactly like the idea of him and Obi-Wan setting Luke up to kill Vader, but maybe they saw it as kind of a Shoot the Dog moment. (Maybe Obi-Wan semi-atoning for leaving Anakin to die? Funny how most of Obi-Wan's decisions keep coming back to his love for Anakin...*contemplative*)

And I agree regarding Yoda caring for the younglings. I definitely know the scene when he and Obi-Wan see what happened at the Temple in the ROTS book had me in tears. :(