Why write the *Defense* job as the cursed one?

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

Why did JKR make it be the Defense job that was cursed?  Having a cursed class did allow her to regularly introduce new professors, and I can understand wanting to do that, particularly since the action was mostly confined to the school.  But why the Defense job?

I can think of some unflattering reasons, such as not wanting to write a hero who can really *do* stuff, or not wanting to have to work out what kind of stuff such a hero would *do*. Or maybe she just wanted to ensure that readers would be interested in the class that happened to be cursed, and Defense would naturally get readers interested, particularly young readers.

Are there any really good reasons?  

We never saw Quirrell teach anything, and the book gives the impression that he wasn't teaching well. Lockhart didn't teach the actual subject at all. Lupin focused on Dark creatures, not Dark Arts; he could've been a replacement Care of Magical Creatures professor, instead of Hagrid. He still could've helped tutor Harry to fight dementors. Crouch and Umbridge's classes do work better as Defense classes, but Snape just needed to moved aside for Slughorn to take over Potions.

Frankly, JKR could've made the *History* class be the cursed one. It wouldn't've affected Quirrell, and Lockhart could still have plausibly talked about himself (as an important figure in *recent* history, of course!).

Lupin's only relevant Defense thing was tutoring Harry to fight dementors, which he could have done as a family friend even if it weren't relevant to his subject. It *was* out of class, after all. The boggart scene does contribute to the characterization, but it could've been included by, say, having Lupin premptively substitute for the Defense teacher, who would later substitute for him during the full moon.

Crouch!Moody could have focused the history class on the recent war with Voldemort, and made his class unusually interesting by demonstrating some of the spells used. (Assuming that the actual Defense class couldn't fill in that bit of background info.) He has the right personality for adding a bit of Defense to another class, and Dumbledore would still take advantage of the cursed position to have an Auror around to keep an eye on things.

Umbridge would probably still need to take over Defense, but things could shift at that point. The previous Defense teacher they'd had could have been forced to resign by the Ministry, and Binns could take over History if there was nothing else to do with that job.

And don't tell me that Voldemort wouldn't've been creepy wanting to teach history. Written by a good author, that could be as creepy as anything.

(If Voldemort actually wanted to teach, that is. The books don't make it sound like Voldemort had a very sincere interest in teaching Defense, although I do find that possibility intriguing.)

Not that it has to be History in particular, although that class would have had potential. It's amazing how little JKR did with the Defense class concept, though. It was practically only there to indicate that fighting is a part of the WW, and to excuse Harry from the need to spend time *outside* class training to fight Voldemort.

Comments

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

Maybe she thought DADA was too cool/interesting? :/

*Is a little bitter*

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

I can think of some unflattering reasons, such as not wanting to write a hero who can really *do* stuff, or not wanting to have to work out what kind of stuff such a hero would *do*.

But she could have gotten around that by making the instructor extremely elderly and/or infirm in some way, someone who, for whatever reason, was not physically able to take on a "hero" role, but who nevertheless is extremely knowledgeable and talented in the subject.

Are there any really good reasons?

Well, if there wasn't the yearly turnover, you'd then have two options:

1) a tenured professor who was a mediocre or perhaps even horrible teacher of the subject, like Trelawney and Binns were in theirs.

2) a brilliant professor of the subject, in which case Rowling would have had a problem of not only the current group of students at Hogwarts being almost equivalent to Aurors in the knowledge of the Dark Arts and how to defend against it, but also alumni who'd had the same brilliant professor when they attended. You'd have 99 percent of the wizarding world knowing how to effectively counteract Voldemort and his DEs.

Rowling seems to have not wanted students to learn to much about the Dark Arts, either the history of dark magik, or how to counter it.

We never saw Quirrell teach anything, and the book gives the impression that he wasn't teaching well.

Considering that he was semi-possessed by Voldie, there may have been an ulterior motive for not teaching it well.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

2) a brilliant professor of the subject, in which case Rowling would have had a problem of not only the current group of students at Hogwarts being almost equivalent to Aurors in the knowledge of the Dark Arts and how to defend against it, but also alumni who'd had the same brilliant professor when they attended. You'd have 99 percent of the wizarding world knowing how to effectively counteract Voldemort and his DEs.

Not necessarily. You wouldn't expect students to be as good as Aurors, because the Aurors receive additional training on top of the Defense class at Hogwarts. Likewise, the DE's would have learned to fight well, above and beyond what they learned in school.

I think that the DE's would've looked scarier in comparison, actually, because they'd be fighting successfully against competent adults, and well-taught children.

Considering that he was semi-possessed by Voldie, there may have been an ulterior motive for not teaching it well.

Sure. And we don't *know* that he wasn't teaching it well, only that Harry wasn't impressed. We learn in PoA that they hadn't used their wands *once* before Lupin's first class, and I can't imagine that Harry would be impressed with any class in Hogwarts that just involved book-learning. That doesn't necessarily mean that the class was bad. If I were designing the Defense curriculum, I'd stick mostly to having them learn from books, rather than having eleven-year-olds magically attack each other, or deal with what are essentially magical wild animals (Dark creatures). If I included spells, I think they'd be first-aid spells, or something similar. Stuff that's *safe*, even for eleven-year-olds.

My point, though, was that Quirrell's being the Defense teacher is completely unnecessary for the plot of the first book. Even the fact that Quirrell had gone abroad. It isn't hard to come up with equally job-specific reasons for a history teacher, or for that matter an herbology or potions teacher, to go abroad, even without resorting to personal reasons that might necessitate something like character development.

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

Not necessarily. You wouldn't expect students to be as good as Aurors, because the Aurors receive additional training on top of the Defense class at Hogwarts.

And considering just how bad the DADA professors have been -- at least, from what we've been shown over the course of 6 years -- the "additonal" training may in fact have been the training they should have gotten at Hogwarts had there been an at least competent teacher who remained in the position year after year.

I think that the DE's would've looked scarier in comparison, actually, because they'd be fighting successfully against competent adults, and well-taught children.

Yes, if there had been at least a competent professor in the position year-after-year, ALL students' level of expertise would have risen, even those who eventually became DEs...

As it is, Rowling established a society where the "evil" wizards and witches went on to study Dark Arts on their own for nefarious purposes, while the majority of that society remained woefully untaught, untrained, and unprepared.

Sure. And we don't *know* that he wasn't teaching it well, only that Harry wasn't impressed.

Considering that Harry wasn't impressed with Snape's teaching, either, that doesn't inform us one way or the other regarding Quirrell's abilities... ;-)

I think that Rowling wanted to have a reason to have the majority of the wizarding world basically clueless when it came to dark magik; and also an excuse for why Snape wasn't the teacher all along.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

This subject makes me think that Binns could have been DADA instructor with another position cursed. With Binns being a ghost and, presumably, only able to regurgitate what he knew in life, any new innovations in the field would be beyond the scope of any of his classes, making them effectively worthless in fighting off the latest threat for which those innovations were devised. Plus, given his dry-as-dust delivery, the subject could have been too boring for active kids to stay awake in his classes, kids like Our Hero.

This would still give us competent DEs and competent Aurors if Binns didn't die and get behind in his field until around the early to mid-1970s and the actual effects of his inability to teach current material wouldn't really surface as an obvious issue until after the Ministry and whoever else is in charge of creating official new spells had done so in the effort to bring Voldemort down.

I liked the suggestion developed below, that the curse didn't kick in until Quirrell brought Voldy-pate back to Hogwarts, if a curse was even necessary at all. I do like a curse, it adds atmosphere (or, it would, given competent execution.)

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

Well, Defence is probably a good choice, as a succession of Defence teachers would mean worse teaching, which in turn would place Harry at more of a disadvantage and force him to learn more in his own time. Which was probably what Rowling wanted, although she seems to have forgotten to include the last part.

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately. :(

[sunnyskywalker]

I could think of a thematic reason, but I don't think it's what Rowling had in mind.

If the Defense position has been cursed since Voldemort started really becoming Voldemort, then the chaos of the revolving door of DADA teachers and poor instruction represents on a micro level how Voldemort is scaring everyone so much that they're barely fighting back and/or are under his control against their will (which seems to be about what happened during the first war, from the few indications we get). Since Harry starts at Hogwarts just as Voldemort starts his return, then the possible ramp-up in the villainy and/or terrible ends of the DADA professors (since Percy only mentions a rumor that it's cursed, not that they've regularly had escaped convicts and mysterious deaths) mirrors the increasing threat, confusion, and Voldemort's influence.

Probably though she just thought it sounded cool, needed Harry to have more excuses to learn DADA on his own, and needed to make two generations of wizards poor fighters so she wouldn't have to get creative whenever fight scenes came up.

History being taught boringly by a dead guy could have represented the failure of the wizarding world to learn from its past, but that would require some sort of recognition of that problem at the end. And we see pretty clearly that no one realizes that all those lessons on goblin rebellions mean something more important than "maybe this one particular goblin doesn't like us," for starters, plus Harry looking at Dumbledore's history of mistakes and deciding to trust him anyway instead of figuring out his own ending...

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

The history class is clearly meant to be just a long-running gag, IMHO. And JKR is clueless about why history is taught and what happens to a culture when the teaching of its history becomes a joke.

Not to mention, having a poor idea of your world's history aside from jokes makes for some spectacularly bad worldbuilding.

[sunnyskywalker]

Her presentation of history class pissed me off even when I was 12 and much less critical. I wanted to hear those lectures! And while Binns might have a boring presentation style, and the textbook they're using in PoA looks pretty bad, we don't know that the content of his lectures is bad or in any way aligned with the book. 17th century goblin rebellions don't sound like fluffy, Wendolyn the Weird history to me, and actually pretty interesting and relevant. *shakes JKR*

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

We never saw Quirrell teach anything, and the book gives the impression that he wasn't teaching well.

As far as I can remember, his lessons weren't exciting enough for the Gryffindor first-years' tastes. He was nervous, yes, but we don't get any real reason to think that he was a bad teacher.

It was practically only there to indicate that fighting is a part of the WW, and to excuse Harry from the need to spend time *outside* class training to fight Voldemort.

It also adds to the disturbing nature of wizarding Britain, seeing as how real-world Britain doesn't have compulsory self-defence classes, and on the whole we get by just fine. Either their society has a worryingly high level of dangerous criminals or they're actively constructing a warrior culture.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Technically, there realy wasn't any need to have the job cursed at all.

Because, lets just look back before Harry's first year. I do not know if there is any exact date associated with Voldemorts visit to Dumbledore so he could get the Defense Job. That was when he cursed the job.

That was BEFORE Harry was even born.

JKR has set forth a idea that, for 17+ Years - I don't even know if anyone ever figured out what year but it could have been many years before the prophecy was made. So you could even be into 20-25 years.

That means, Hogwarts has gone through at the very least 17 Defense Against the dark arts professors. Thats the least number because Voldie would have visited no later than Harry's birth clearly and it really has to be more than 17, because it seems to be when Voldemort returned to England.

Again, I don't know if there was ever a date figured out for the visit of Voldie to get the job.

So it's almost boardering on stupid that Hogwarts would be able to continuously fill the DADA position. There certainly could not be that many capable qualified people just in England that could teach DADA. Dumbledore surely would have had to search out people from other countries because being that the magical community is relatively small I can't see them being able to get people 10 years in a row...let alone 20 years in a row.

The stupidity of it is JKR really didn't have to curse the job at all. It really doesn't add anything to the story as far as providing anything. She still could have had the teachers start falling off each year anyway.

Example 1 - Quirrell was connected with Voldemort - he returned from his travels only to be killed by the Lily love magic connection. He was previously a muggle studies teacher (yea, thats what JKR said)

#1 - there is no need for a curse to exist. He's gotten rid of by the plot for being attached to Voldemort.

Example 2 - Lockhart gets zapped at the end and is also shown to be incapable and a screw up anyway.

#2 realy doesn't need to be associated with the curse.

Example 3 - Lupin is a werewolf. Did anyone really think that would end well?

#3 - As nice as it is to have a potion for a werewolf, seriously. He's dangerous. I can't agree that I'd want him to be in charge of my child IF he can't even remember to take his potion. Seriously, he should have been fired anyway. You don't need a curse here to show Lupin was not very responsible at the end of that book.

Example 4 - Moody wasn't moody, nuff said.

#4 - He wasn't even the real guy who was supposed to be teaching, I dont' see why there was a curse needed to realize why he needed to be gone.

Example 5 - Umbridge.

#5 - She sucks, see Harry, Snape's not so bad after all. Umbridge herself was a curse, so I don't see why there needed to be another around for any reader to say she needed to go.

Example 6 - Severus. Hum, his exit was sorta...planned.

#6 - Since the Dumbledore AK was planned, what the hell did their need to be a curse for?

Example 7 - Death Eaters.

#7 - Really, it's the end of the series, why did we need a curse when all these teachers could easily be gotten rid of by the plot.

To me, JKR's premise would have worked if it had started when Harry showed up. Having the idea of the cures existing for more than 7 years makes it look highly bogus and stupid.

I have no idea after a few years HOW Dumbledore could have gotten qualified people to teach. He had to be running low by the 10th year. JKR's premise was just as easily served by each book if there wasn't a curse.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

True. Considering that in the first book, Quirrell sounds like he's taught Defense before, there was really no need to add a curse to the series. It's only later, in interviews and HBP (I think?), that we learn that Quirrell had been the Muggle Studies teacher, and that there really was a literal curse.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Well if we are to believe Hagrid. Lockhart was the only one applying for the job that year. Well, except for Severus of course, but he doesn't count, does he? And after that year Albus could only hire people who owed him something or people the Ministry forced on him.

As to when Voldemort returned to Britain and cursed the job - the dates run from December 1956 to the late 1960s. Take your pick as suits your story.

[fishinginthemud.livejournal.com]

I doubt she intended for the job to be cursed from the beginning. No one ever mentions Quirrell's immediate predecessor, for example, or drops any lines about how they think he's going to go. She probably got the idea after the second or third book.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Nor does Albus introduce him as a new teacher, or a veteran teacher with a new job description. And Hagrid implies that he taught defense previously, but lacked practical experience.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Yes, thats just it. None of the kids even seem curious. Wouldn't Hermione, who looks up things just for the hell of it - wouldn't she have been interested in finding out IF the curse was real?

Fred and George and other students above Harry's first year would have known the teacher the year before Harry went to Hogwarts, Fred and George would have had that DADA as one of their professors.

YET, there is ZERO comments from them about any predecessors, even as a joke. "Oh yea, Harry...Professor X was our DADA last year, he got killed by a deranged Hippogriff."

Nothing, nobody looks into it, nobody cares. Mainly because the it's just a throw in story that really becomes a tad unbelievable (even in a fake magical world), when you look at how long the actual curse would have been in effect.

It's just there; and as my first comment, Hermione who friggin finds out who Snape's mum is by hunting down old newspaper clippings doesn't even bat an eye or investigate the curse.

I wonder how Voldemort had the curse set up. You'll never keep a DADA for more than a year unless I die?

I don't see Voldemort, the guy who wants to live forever putting bets on his life like that?

And I always thought curses had a nifty out; unless in the HP world there are unbreakable curses but, thats a whole nother argument I guess.
WTH?

[sunnyskywalker]

I think Percy mentioned the curse rumor, but yeah. It's very weird that they don't have stories about the previous professors if it's true. It probably would have worked better if, after Harry's first three years, that's when they started wondering whether Voldemort cursed the job while he was there with Quirrell.

Or the curse could have been much less harmful before - they couldn't keep a DADA teacher beyond, say, three years, but they usually left for reasons like suddenly moving to Australia to be with family before. Then one of the reasons Dumbledore knows something's up is that suddenly the curse kicks into high gear and DADA teachers start dropping like flies.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

It was the best excuse she could think of for why Snape couldn't be the DADA prof.

And she needed Snape to want the post because it's the basis for much of the kids' arguments about why he's evil. Snape is evil because he hates Dumbledore because Dumbledore won't give him the job.

In POA, for instance, Harry suspects Snape of poisoning Lupin so he can steal Lupin's position.

Also, it casts Dumbledore in a better light if it's a curse that's keeping him from giving Snape the post rather than Dumbledore's distrust of Snape.

[fishinginthemud.livejournal.com]

Hell, she could have just made Snape the DADA teacher in the first place, and the kids would still have plenty of reason to think he was evil. He's the dickhead teacher everyone hates; obviously he's evil. Knowing the position is cursed and not realizing why Dumbledore won't give it to Snape just makes the kids look stupid.

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

Also, it casts Dumbledore in a better light if it's a curse that's keeping him from giving Snape the post rather than Dumbledore's distrust of Snape.

I'm now curious...

Just when did Dumbles decide to give the DADA post to Snape in 1996? Rowling presents it as Dumbles' decision after he's been doomed by the cursed ring and knows that he has less than a year to live -- he can then put Snape in the DADA post, knowing that it won't matter if the position is cursed (if it indeed was cursed) because Snape would be killing him before the year was up, and either would have to go into hiding or, as happened, the DEs took over and Snape would end up as Headmaster.

But if Dumbles waited until after putting on the cursed ring, then he waited until the last minute to put someone in the DADA post. If he still hadn't made a decision until that point, who else was he considering? WAS the position really cursed or, as you suggest, was Dumbles really using it as an excuse for why he wasn't putting Snape into the position before that year?

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Isn't it rather funny that Snape would want to teach Defense against dark arts, when he's supposed to be a dark arts lover?

I mean ya know, isn't that sorta an oxymoronic thing for a guy who loves Dark arts to want to teach. I love it therefor I'll show you out to defend and defeat it?

So yea, it does kinda show how stupid a majority of the characters are to believe a guy would teach you how to defeat what he loves.

[oryx_leucoryx]

OK, so the job is cursed, no teacher can stay around, and somehow Dumbles knows that renaming the course isn't going to solve the problem. Why aren't teachers like Minerva and Filius incorporating bits of DADA curriculum into their classes, especially at times of war? Why isn't there a constant dueling club, organized by the teachers?

[fishinginthemud.livejournal.com]

Because when you get down to it, ordinary people aren't supposed to be able to defend themselves. They're supposed to wait around for a prophesied hero to do it for them, and they're certainly not allowed to overshadow him in Defense, especially if he sucks at everything else.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Why not just get rid of the DADA post all together, downsize and give the work to your already existing employees.

Potions has DADA signifiance as well as all the other classes.

The only reason DADA seems to be around is to play with dark animals and that could have been taken care of by Care of magical creatures. All the other stuff like defensive spells or such could have been taken up by Transfigurations and Charms and whatever else could be covered by things like potions.

And yes, the dueling club could have taken up any kind of defensive spell/protection needed.

Besides, the dueling club ended up only being shown in second year. WTH happened to it before or after. I don't remember anyone saying to Harry first year, Hay, we're in the dueling club, you should join...and I don't remember anything else after 2nd year where people said, we're in the dueling club.

Dumb one shot plot moment so Severus could bitchslap Lockhart...Which technially I have no problem since it was my favorite moment in the book and movie, but still. We never see the Dueling club again.