GOF Chapter 14: The Unforgivable Curses

[oryx_leucoryx]

(or - curses which can be unforgivable or gallant, depending on who casts them on whom)

My sporks may become more sporadic, nor will I be responding as much as I have so far, as Real Life is becoming more demanding. I still hope to create opportunities for discussions among you. Enjoy!

By the third day of classes Neville melted his 6th cauldron. Was that 6 in one lesson or the 6th since he started at Hogwarts? In any case, he disemboweled horned toads for detention. But since horned toads are actually some species of lizard I don't think his near nervous collapse had to do with thoughts on Trevor, just the effort of a repetitive, unpleasant task.

It isn't the fourth year running that Severus 'failed' to get the DADA job, Harry. The world was not created the day you entered Hogwarts.

Severus is avoiding 'Moody''s eyes. Is the real Moody a Legilimens? I think this avoidance supports Moody's involvement in Severus' interrogation during or after VoldieWar I.

Real-Moody's choice of textbook 'The Dark Forces: A guide to Self-Protection' is the same book Quirrell assigned to them in first year. Maybe that's the standard DADA text back from Prof Merrythought's days. At any rate, I'm wondering now about Umbridge's claim that Quirrell's lessons were age-appropriate. Well, maybe it was a very thick book, with sections for each year.

But 'Moody' is much cooler - he is not going to teach from the book at all! (He's just the opposite of Umbridge, who wanted the students to have books out and wands away.) Yes! He is going to bring them up to scratch about what wizards can do to each other! After some 12 years under Imperius, he gets to demonstrate Dark Arts in front of admiring students! Oh, how Barty is going to enjoy himself this year!

Yes, Barty, you owe one to Ron's dad. (I wonder if Arthur ever contemplated how his shenanigans assisted Voldemort's return. I wish he admitted to it when he claimed Percy was being recruited as a spy. If he gave his example of being used without his knowledge it might have gone over better than open accusation.) Barty, your retirement will be much quieter than you think.

Aha, the Ministry approves of demonstrating illegal Dark curses to 6th years like the twins. But 'Moody' claims to have Albus' approval to accelerate the curriculum a bit. Knowing Albus' attitude to the Ministry I wouldn't be surprised if that were true.

Arthur *would* know about Imperius. As one who dealt with victims of it or as a victim himself? Alas, Imperiurized!Arthur was never confirmed.

"Think it's funny, do you? You'd like it, would you, if I did it to you?" That will be put to test next lesson. Interesting that it is a DE who makes the students think of the difference in perspective between a spectator and a victim. Of course he is not just a perpetrator but a former victim himself.

"I could make it jump out of the window, drown itself, throw itself down one of your throats ..." - Thanks to Elkins for pointing out those were exactly Barty's fears - that his father would force him to commit suicide. Especially after the QWC, when it turned out he could throw the curse off and Winky was no longer around to supervise him.

I can see how practice can help recognize when one is under Imperius and therefore one needs to resist it, but how does one avoid being hit by it? Perhaps Barty was trying to give the students a false sense of security - imagining they'd be able to recognize the wand movement or the beginning of the incantation?

(BTW Ron only knew one Unforgivable Curse, and he wasn't completely certain about that one either. I guess Arthur never mentioned the other 2? Nor did, say, the AK come up in the context of how Molly's brothers died?)

It is so creepy to know that it is Barty inviting Neville to speak about the Cruciatus. Yes, it was popular once. With you. (Don't worry, it wasn't the spider Hermione was being compassionate for. Still, I like it that she opposed a teacher for an upset classmate.)

OK, in a class that includes several purebloods and at least one wizarding-raised half-blood, how come Hermione is the only one who knows about the AK?

Harry is the only one who survived the AK. Unless you count all those who managed to duck behind something or conjure a blocking object in time.

The use of any Unforgivable on a fellow human being earns you a life sentence in Azkaban. Casting them on spiders is fine. As well as on human beings who aren't your fellows, I suppose. That can sometimes be gallant, if you are the right kind of person.

Oh, how the Gryffindors enjoyed the demonstration of Dark Arts in class! A pity Hogwarts only teaches defense, really!

If Neville and Harry (and Hermione, of course) were disturbed by the class but Ron wasn't - does this mean Imperiurized!Arthur is false?

Now I'm wondering how this lesson went with the 4th year Slytherins. Did they know the names of the Unforgivables? Did they pretend not to know? Did 'Moody' taunt Draco with the Imperius Curse? Whom did he taunt with the others?

'Moody' invites Neville to tea. So spooky when one knows who that is. I wonder how Neville reflects on his interactions with 'Moody' later on, when he learns the truth. Because Harry is completely unperturbed that it was a DE who gave him the idea to become an Auror.

Moody attacks first, asks questions later. Does anyone need more evidence the real one was a Gryffindor?

Oh, Neville received a book about water plants. Which Harry will need later that year. But as Neville is mostly invisible to Harry the book won't be of any help.

Barty's act is going fine - Harry is now comparing him to Remus.

Harry and Ron are making up predictions for Divination. Oddly they actually do reflect the events of the coming year, though on a more extended schedule: danger of burns - may be about the skrewts, as Ron says, but also about the dragon Harry will face in almost 3 months. Losing a treasured possession - foreshadows the second task. Getting stabbed in the back by someone Harry thought was a friend - Ron's reaction to Harry's name emerging from the goblet, or 'Moody' turning out to be a DE who attempts to kill Harry? I'm not sure what losing a fight or a bet were about, though this is Hogwarts so there's always a lot of fighting going on, and of course this is the year of gambling.

Since Hermione isn't around to tell them off, Crookshanks is doing it for her. Why don't you go snarling at 'Moody', Crookshanks?

The twins are conspiring about blackmailing Ludo, again. (No, Crookshanks doesn't care about that either.)

Ron seems to be drowning twice. Well, he will be underwater for hours on end. Does this count? OTOH Harry dying by decapitation is a bit of a stretch - Voldmeort likes the AK, that leaves the victim's body intact.

Here comes SPEW, with 50 badges! Ron is treasurer, because he is so financially responsible and Harry is secretary, because Hermione said so.

Hermione's research revealed that elves have been enslaved for centuries, but not anything about what magic is involved to enforce their status. She came up with goals for her campaign without any input from the elves themselves, which shows just how much she believes in treating them as persons with wills of their own.

Hedwig is back with Sirius' reply. It took her under 2 weeks to fly from Surrey to whichever tropical location Sirius was staying at and back to Scotland. Sirius decides that things are serious enough to justify his return, but Harry blows it off. Doesn't he remember that Peter escaped? That Albus believed Trelawney's prophecy about him returning Voldemort to power was true? Wouldn't that put him in danger? (And not only him...)

Later we will learn that Sirius also reported about Harry's dream to Albus. So at this moment Albus knows the following: Peter left Hogwarts in June, probably on his way to Albania. Bertha Jorkins disappeared in Albania not long afterwards. Tom left Albania (must have been reported by Albus' 'sources') and must have arrived in Britain recently. Albus may already be aware of Frank Bryce's disappearance in Little Hangleton, (Or he may find out this tidbit later on.) Also, someone loyal to Voldemort was (probably) present at the QWC.

Comments

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

I think I've read the occasional post here and there which tries to make Snape out as a real goodie-goodie where he really wasn't. He was a murdering death eater (although maybe the 'murdering' part is fanon, not canon?). A pureblood bigot. A bad teacher (oh God, not another 200 comments off that observation!?!). He wanted Sirius kissed. Probably other stuff. Actually I'm not convinced right now that he did all he could to stop the Ministry invasion by the kids at the end of OotP.

1) We don't know what Snape did in the DEs except for spying. Nothing else is mentioned.

2) Since he was a halfblood, it would be kind of hard for him to be a pureblood bigot, unless you're suggesting his self-hatred extended to his own blood status. Again, we have no canonical indication of that. If you mean he must be pro-pureblood because he was a DE, that doesn't follow. We don't know why he joined them. Voldemort was running a cult, and cult recruiters are notoriously dishonest when they're trying to persuade somebody to join.

3) I agree Snape had no business being a teacher of young kids, or incompetent potioneers of any age. He would probably be a great teacher for older teens and adults who were good at potions and highly motivated to learn.

4) So what if he wanted Sirius Kissed? This was a man who had tried to get him horribly murdered, and still showed no remorse about that act. I'd want revenge on the bastard, too. Not to mention that Snape wanted Sirius Kissed, not for his own sake, but because he thought Sirius had gotten Lily killed.

You're also imposing your own cultural notions on the Potterverse. We may see Kissing as a fate worse than death, but in the Potterverse, it's a government-approved punishment. Sirius was guilty, of many crimes. We're not talking about "honor killing" an innocent woman for getting raped.

5) As for the kids at the Ministry scene--oh, for heaven's sake! You know nobody can tell Harry anything when he wants to go off half-cocked like that. Certainly not somebody he regards as an enemy such as Snape.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Since he was a halfblood, it would be kind of hard for him to be a pureblood bigot --

Doesn't he call Lily a 'mudblood'? That's pretty decisive, isn't it?

So what if he wanted Sirius Kissed? ... I'd want revenge on the bastard, too.

Okay, so you concede that it would be a case of revenge. While understandable, that's not really a good thing.

You know nobody can tell Harry anything when he wants to go off half-cocked like that. Certainly not somebody he regards as an enemy such as Snape.

I dunno, I keep wondering if Snape could have - say - said something like "Headmistress, I do believe Mr. Potter needs some immediate detention to teach him to be civil towards we professors", something to keep Harry confined at Hogwarts while he - Snape - could sort things out.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

Um. Not sure if you've read my other post yet, but...

Harry was already in Umbridge's office, and she showed no signs of letting him or his friends go. Why on earth would he recommend detention when they're quasi-under arrest?

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

Okay, so you concede that it would be a case of revenge. While understandable, that's not really a good thing.

Maybe not admirable, but not especially worthy of condemnation when you consider that his revenge for nearly being killed amounts to... a citizen's arrest. It's a reasonable basis for wanting revenge, and it's a very reasonable kind of revenge to take.

(The fact that law enforcement in the WW is insane is something else again, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect him to defy the law, either, particularly not for Sirius' sake.)

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Lest we forget that the most noble Black and most honorable Remus Lupin were willing to kill the guy that would prove Sirius Black innocence.

I say that Remus and Sirius are dumbasses - for their lack of thinking, for their stupidity and for their all around bad form.

They were going to murder Peter Petigrew right there in front of Hermione, Ron and Harry.

Are we gonna trivialze Black and Lupins need of revenge or are we completely ignore it. Maybe we're just forgetting it, opps, tralala, when did that happen in canon. About the same time, lotta revenge going on there.

OMG Severus wanted revenge on Sirius Black?

Sirius Black si that the same guy he thought betrayed his one true love...and he wanted revenge on the bastard? Nooo? Say it ain't so. Severus should have blasted him into oblivian the moment he saw him if he was only a revenge seeking brainless death eater.

That he dislikes the guy who abused him in school and the guy who he beleived betrayed Lily. The idea of getting even with that guy makes Severus evil? Poor Sirius Black, I feel so sorry for him and his desire to take revenge on Peter Petigrew.

Someone please, show me which revenge makes you a good guy? The need for revenge happen right in the same section of the book.

I guess the good guys desire for revenge gets a pass and bad old Severus' need for revenge...well thats just so horrible and makes him EEevvviillll.

(needs to bite something)

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

Doesn't he call Lily a 'mudblood'? That's pretty decisive, isn't it?

No. I figured out when I was a child that it's not what people say that matters, but what they do. If Snape had really been a bigot, he wouldn't have had Lily for a friend, let alone been "in love" with her. It's more likely he'd gotten in the habit of using that word while in the dorm in an attempt to fit in, and it slipped out under stress. Besides, you forget Lily herself had no problem with his use of the term--until he applied it to her. I agree with those who think she wanted to break off their friendship and was just waiting for him to give her an excuse.

Okay, so you concede that it would be a case of revenge.

Among other reasons. Interesting that you leave those out. As with your argument that Snape should have wanted Lily to be happy, even if it was with his worst enemy, you impose an expectation of generosity of spirit on him that you apply to no one else in the Potterverse.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I agree with those who think she wanted to break off their friendship and was just waiting for him to give her an excuse.

But Snape gave her that excuse. Called his friend a bad, prejudiced, 'blood bigot' name.

Don't worry about what Lily did with that ammunition. Damn Snape for issuing it in the first place.

Okay, so you concede that it would be a case of revenge.

Among other reasons. Interesting that you leave those out.

Revenge with 'other reasons' is revenge with chips is revenge. It's revenge. It's a bad thing. Worry about ameliorating circumstances or 'other reasons' when you're deciding punishment. But it's clear that Snape is guilty of the crime - wanting revenge.

... you impose an expectation of generosity of spirit on him that you apply to no one else in the Potterverse.

No. I impose an expectation based on my definition of "real love". Snape fails the test.

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

But Snape gave her that excuse. Called his friend a bad, prejudiced, 'blood bigot' name.

Don't worry about what Lily did with that ammunition. Damn Snape for issuing it in the first place.

Again, you're ignoring the fact Lily had no problem with his calling other people that; she only got bent out of shape when her ox was gored. While Snape was wrong for using a racist term, I think his alleged bigotry is balanced out by her hypocrisy.

Worry about ameliorating circumstances or 'other reasons' when you're deciding punishment. But it's clear that Snape is guilty of the crime - wanting revenge.

So having certain thoughts and feelings is a crime now? We have just left the Potterverse and entered the Orwellverse.

I impose an expectation based on my definition of "real love". Snape fails the test.

So does everyone else in the Potterverse. For all Rowling's blather about "love" and "Christian values," there's nary a sign of genuine love, generosity, or forgiveness in these books. But I don't see you hammering every other character for being shallow, petty, vindictive, etc. At least Snape didn't exact revenge when he had the chance, as Karen points out below. That makes him the moral superior to your precious Hermione the Mutilator.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

At least Snape didn't exact revenge when he had the chance, as Karen points out below

I would like to point out that my moral outrage meter goes off the charts because of the revenge accusations; mostly because I saw good characters feeding on the same kinda desires.

If Severus wanted revenge on Sirius Black, then why? Was his desire for what he believed as justice any less real than Sirius Black and Remus Lupin, or harry's when he wanted to get even with Bellatrix for killing Sirius?

Revenge is for Legos:

Severus gets hit with the spear of morality and it goes a little something like this:













Okay, so I know it's cheesy but who doesn't love lego's dipped in revenge.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Again, you're ignoring the fact Lily had no problem with his calling other people that --

Yes. Because that's not on-topic. It's irrelevant.

I think his alleged bigotry is balanced out by her hypocrisy.

He's a bigot, yes. Whether Lily is as bad is Irrelevant.

So having certain thoughts and feelings is a crime now?

No, simply off topic and irrelevant.

(Okay, a minor crime in debating circles.)

We have just left the Potterverse and entered the Orwellverse.

Well, I'm staying put with the "Snape is guilty" topic. You're the one who's running away and seeking refuge anywhere else.

So does everyone else in the Potterverse.

Irrelevant. We're talking about Snape. Well, I am. You're evading the subject.

But I don't see you hammering every other character for being shallow, petty, vindictive, etc.

Irrelevant.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Hum, it sounds like you're pleading the 5th.

Irrelevant and off topic complaints if you ask me are evading the subject. You can only use that 'irrelevant' comment so many times you know and then it gets kinda boring.

At some point you're not presenting an argument you're just trying to justify your opinion by saying everyone elses opinion is irrelevant.

That doesn't really make you right ya know.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Hum, it sounds like you're pleading the 5th.

NEVER!!

As an Australian I can't hide behind that.

Irrelevant and off topic complaints if you ask me are evading the subject.

You *almost* got it, Karen. Here's what you should have said:

Irrelevant and off topic complaints if you ask me are due to the other party evading the subject.

There you go, fixed it for you. :-)

At some point you're not presenting an argument you're just trying to justify your opinion by saying everyone elses opinion is irrelevant.

Just the irrelevant opinions.

You understand you said absolutely nothing in this post about the original topic, right?

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

You understand you said absolutely nothing in this post about the original topic, right?

What was the original topic? That Hermione loves Ron and had babies with him?

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

Hum, it sounds like you're pleading the 5th.

NEVER!!

As an Australian I can't hide behind that.

Quite frankly this is all starting to sound like when the guys I used to bowl with drank the better part of a 5th after a game...

You understand you said absolutely nothing in this post about the original topic, right?

You understand that neither did you, right?

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Don't worry about what Lily did with that ammunition. Damn Snape for issuing it in the first place.

The question is, have you ever said anything hurtful or mean to anyone you love or care about. How about thought it? How about yelled at someone you love even when you knew you were wrong or done something to hurt someone you love.

Comeon madderbrad, really think about it, have you ever had bad thoughts or ever said something you regret to someone you love?

How about have you ever done it when you were being humilated and abused in front of a whole school? Comeon mb...seriously, think about Snape calling Lily and mudblood and reflect on your own personal life. Have you ever hurt someone you loved by saying something mean, thoughtless or insesitive?

>i>Revenge with 'other reasons' is revenge with chips is revenge. It's revenge. It's a bad thing. Worry about ameliorating circumstances or 'other reasons' when you're deciding punishment. But it's clear that Snape is guilty of the crime - wanting revenge.

Revenge, all this talk of revenge...So is Sirius Black and Remus Lupin as I've already pointed out. And if I really want to get serious so is Harry, running after Bellatrix and doing some unforgivables.

But nevermind that, I forget that Snape was in lust and a evil bastard who wanted revenge on someone...The good characters would never be so dishonorable to want revenge.

No. I impose an expectation based on my definition of "real love". Snape fails the test.

Who doesn't fail the test? I haven't met a human yet who doesn't say horrible things when they get angry. I've always been a firm believer that the only people who can really, reall hurt you are the people that love you.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Comeon madderbrad, really think about it, have you ever had bad thoughts or ever said something you regret to someone you love?

Sure. And, in my anger, I dredge up something out of what I know about that person; perhaps something bad they've done in the past. Or I insult them about some characteristic of theirs.

I'm not sure, though, that I've ever used words completely orthogonal to my own beliefs. Which is why I can't see Snape's use of the word 'mudblood' as totally innocuous.

So is Sirius Black and Remus Lupin as I've already pointed out.

Yep, that's true. And irrelevant.

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

No, Brad, it's not irrelevant. What the others have been trying to point out to you is that you are accepting Rowling's double standards, while we are not. We can see that Severus is wrong in some of his attitudes, feelings, and even actions. But we see the same in ALL of the designated "good guys". So - why is he 'nasty" when they are not?

I'll tell you something. I first became a Snape fan as I read the end of POA. The man was clearly so traumatized, in such agony, and yet - in spite of his exaggerated threats - so moderate and even forgiving in his actions. And his pain was held up to the readers as something to laugh at.

It's just interesting to me that you completely buy into Rowling's preferred image of Snape - what she wants readers to believe about him, based on the adverbs and adjectives she throws around and what she says in her interviews. I find her books so inconsistent that I feel free to make up my own mind. And I go with what she shows us, rather than what she tells us. What does she show us?

An adolescent who has all the characteristics of an abuse survivor, making some bad decisions and getting sucked into a cult. That same young man (still an adolescent, btw) going to a trusted adult when he realizes he's endangered a loved one, and getting treated with cruelty and contempt. That young man working, all his adult life, to correct the harm he has done - as far as this is possible. We see him growing morally and emotionally, imperfect though he remains.

He is NOT especially vengeful in POA. If he were, he would have summoned the dementors himself (we know, from HBP, that he has his own method for dealing with them) and let them have a private feast while he watched. He does nothing of the kind. Of course, he IS displacing some of his own guilt onto Sirius, just as, in OOTP, Harry displaces his own guilt onto Severus. But he sincerely believes that Sirius betrayed Lily and her family, and that's why he's practically crazy in this scene. Borolin has an entire essay called "But Snape is just nasty, right", and she goes into detail about this and other scenes. So does Helen Ketcham, whose essay is brilliant - but I'm not sure it's still available anywhere.

Both of these women focus on what Snape actually does, and contrast it with what he says and the adjectives used about him. You seem to accept Rowling's Harry's eye-view- descriptions of Snape rather uncritically. It's interesting to me that you seem to take Rowling's line almost exactly in some things, while being very critical of her in others (Harry-Ginny, Hermione-Ron.)

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

What the others have been trying to point out to you is that you are accepting Rowling's double standards --

No I'm not. I put forward my own personal metric for how 'true love' works. I *never* went back to the books and said "true love is Harry/Ginny, or this, or that". That's why Karen and oneandthetruth's childish we-can't-refute-him-on-Snape-so-we'll-drag-in-everyone-else-as-strawmen fails to impress.

We can see that Severus is wrong in some of his attitudes, feelings, and even actions.

Good! So can I. :-)

(Although the issue here is simply my contention that what he felt for Lily wasn't 'true love'. I'm forgetting now how the vengeance thing came in, although I stand behind that too.)

So - why is he 'nasty" when they are not?

That's a different topic, Mary. I haven't even broached the separate topics of what other people are nasty. Although you know what I think of some matters, like OBHWF. :-)

we know, from HBP, that he has his own method for dealing with them

Can you remind me where that's shown? (I love how the people here can 'research' so much from the books, connecting them together like that. A whole order of magnitude more than Rowling did or wrote, though, sadly.)

"... only hope Dumbledore's not going to make difficulties," Snape was saying. "The Kiss will be performed immediately?"

Vengeance.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

No I'm not. I put forward my own personal metric for how 'true love' works.

Lets try again, irrelevent.

I *never* went back to the books and said "true love is Harry/Ginny, or this, or that". That's why Karen and oneandthetruth's childish we-can't-refute-him-on-Snape-so-we'll-drag-in-everyone-else-as-strawmen fails to impress.

Wow, childish and fails to impress? I guess I'll have to live with a wounded heart then; so sad, love has been lost because I failed to impress. I have failed in my quest for true love. Defeated and alone in a shack, bleeding. Sad me who failed to impress madderbrad.

Can you remind me where that's shown?

No we can't, we're hoping you'll read the books yourself one day.

"... only hope Dumbledore's not going to make difficulties," Snape was saying. "The Kiss will be performed immediately?"

Vengeance.

Black and Lupin stood shoulder to shoulder, wands raised. "You should have realized," said Lupin quietly, "if Voldemort didn't kill you, we would. Good-buy, Peter."


Looks like everyone was wanting vengeance at the end of that book.

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

It's when he starts teaching about Dementors in HBP. He has another method for dealing with them, and Harry disagrees with him. Of course, this being Rowling, we never find out what his method is, but he does have one. Many of us have surmised it has something to do with occlumency.

As to your last line - I would say, "yes, and? So what?"

In this scene, Severus is in the exact same position as a person whose dear friend/family member was murdered, and who wants the murderer to get the death penalty asap. Would I agree with such a person? No. Would I have compassion for them, and see where they are coming from? Yes.

And the point we have all been making, all along, is that Snape is neither nastier, nor more vengeful, than other characters in these books, including Harry and your beloved Hermione. You keep telling us that argument is irrelevant. Why? Why is it irrelevant that a poorly socialized, isolated, depressed young man is no more vengeful - especially in the case of direct attacks *on him* - than the characters we are told to think of as "good"?

I really wish you could try to empathize with Snape and see things from this character's pov. But it's clear that you can't. So I won't be arguing any more.

In any case, I think we're way off track! These books are certainly not all about Snape (even if they really should have been!;))

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

Oh - just one more thing. There is no one on the face of this planet, in a book or in real life, who could pass your test for "true love". No one except Jesus. All of us, no matter how well socialized, loving and selfless, fail sometimes.

I'd say the 20-year-old Snape being willing to give up Lily forever qualifies, even though his motives were obviously mixed. Most of us, IRL, don't do better.

Quoting another livejournaller about Snape: "My heart breaks for him. He gave and gave and it was never enough."

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

I put forward my own personal metric for how 'true love' works.

Your "personal metric" doesn't make it a universal metric.

Although the issue here is simply my contention that what he felt for Lily wasn't 'true love'

The author says it was.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Doesn't he call Lily a 'mudblood'? That's pretty decisive, isn't it?

Wait, wasn't that the girl at 9 years old he said it didn't matter if she was a mudblood and wait...wasn't that the girl he was supposed to be in love with.

Oh wait thats right, you said it was not love, it was only lust.

Okay, so you concede that it would be a case of revenge. While understandable, that's not really a good thing.

Last I checked Severus was the one that found them after the dementor attack at the end of POA. They were uncontious, Severus could have done anything to Sirius at that point and nobody would have been the wiser.

Yet he didn't do anything except he conjured stretchers and took them up to the castle. Severus says, "All unconscious by the time I reached them. I bound and gagged Black, naturally, conjured stretchers, and brought them all straight back to the castle."

Noice he didn't call the dementors back to finish sucking out Sirius soul, he didn't take Sirius away to where the dementors retreated; as the dementors apparently retreated back to their positions at the entrances to the castle. In fact Severus would have had to pass a dementor if they were guarding the entrances to the castle. So it sounds to me like they would have had to go past a dementor to get back into Hogwarts.

So IF it was only revenge he was seeing in terms of Sirius, he could have easily given the uncontious Sirius black over to the first Dementor he passed.

Severus did not take the law into his own hands or act on his need for revenge, he turned Sirius over to the people in charge.

And correct me if I'm wrong but Sirius Black and Remus Lupin were going to kill Peter Petigrew in cold blood. Who the hell looks more noble here really? Do you really want to give those two a pass and call Severus a person only seeing revenge on Sirius black, when Lupin and Black were going to cut down a man in front of school children? A man who had no wand and was defensless.

Screw Sirius Black, he isn't any better character than Severus and I'll argue with anyone that thinks he is.

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

/1) We don't know what Snape did in the DEs except for spying. Nothing else is mentioned./

Yes, I think that Bellatrix says something in HBP about Snape not "getting his hands dirty" or actually engaging in combat with the Order or something similar. So, if a fellow Death Eater is saying this, then maybe all Snape really did was spy or offer assistance in potions.

/We may see Kissing as a fate worse than death, but in the Potterverse, it's a government-approved punishment./

Yet nobody - Harry, Hermione, Ron, Dumbledore, etc. - ever says that this barbaric punishment should be abolished or comes up with an alternative. In the epilogue, we're assured that "all is well," but we don't learn what happened with Azkaban and the dementors. At least not in the text.

/5) As for the kids at the Ministry scene--oh, for heaven's sake! You know nobody can tell Harry anything when he wants to go off half-cocked like that. Certainly not somebody he regards as an enemy such as Snape./

Hermione, one of Harry's best friends, tried to get him to calm down by telling him that it could be a trap and what did Harry do? He refused to listen to her, yelled at her, and went charging into the Ministry anyway. If Hermione couldn't persuade Harry to stay where he was, then there's no way that Snape could.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

Yet nobody - Harry, Hermione, Ron, Dumbledore, etc. - ever says that this barbaric punishment should be abolished or comes up with an alternative.

Indeed. What were Harry's exact words, again? Ah, yes:

Harry sat stunned for a moment at the idea of someone having their soul sucked out through their mouth. But then he thought of Black.

“He deserves it,” he said suddenly.

“You think so?” said Lupin lightly. “Do you really think anyone deserves that?”

“Yes,” said Harry defiantly. “For… for some things…”

[...]

Harry half wished that he hadn’t asked what was under a Dementor’s hood, the answer had been so horrible, and he was so lost in unpleasant thoughts of what it would feel like to have your soul sucked out of you that he walked headlong into Professor McGonagall halfway up the stairs.

God knows Lupin has his flaws, but remembering this line of his makes me respect him more.