GOF Chapter 14: The Unforgivable Curses

[oryx_leucoryx]

(or - curses which can be unforgivable or gallant, depending on who casts them on whom)

My sporks may become more sporadic, nor will I be responding as much as I have so far, as Real Life is becoming more demanding. I still hope to create opportunities for discussions among you. Enjoy!

By the third day of classes Neville melted his 6th cauldron. Was that 6 in one lesson or the 6th since he started at Hogwarts? In any case, he disemboweled horned toads for detention. But since horned toads are actually some species of lizard I don't think his near nervous collapse had to do with thoughts on Trevor, just the effort of a repetitive, unpleasant task.

It isn't the fourth year running that Severus 'failed' to get the DADA job, Harry. The world was not created the day you entered Hogwarts.

Severus is avoiding 'Moody''s eyes. Is the real Moody a Legilimens? I think this avoidance supports Moody's involvement in Severus' interrogation during or after VoldieWar I.

Real-Moody's choice of textbook 'The Dark Forces: A guide to Self-Protection' is the same book Quirrell assigned to them in first year. Maybe that's the standard DADA text back from Prof Merrythought's days. At any rate, I'm wondering now about Umbridge's claim that Quirrell's lessons were age-appropriate. Well, maybe it was a very thick book, with sections for each year.

But 'Moody' is much cooler - he is not going to teach from the book at all! (He's just the opposite of Umbridge, who wanted the students to have books out and wands away.) Yes! He is going to bring them up to scratch about what wizards can do to each other! After some 12 years under Imperius, he gets to demonstrate Dark Arts in front of admiring students! Oh, how Barty is going to enjoy himself this year!

Yes, Barty, you owe one to Ron's dad. (I wonder if Arthur ever contemplated how his shenanigans assisted Voldemort's return. I wish he admitted to it when he claimed Percy was being recruited as a spy. If he gave his example of being used without his knowledge it might have gone over better than open accusation.) Barty, your retirement will be much quieter than you think.

Aha, the Ministry approves of demonstrating illegal Dark curses to 6th years like the twins. But 'Moody' claims to have Albus' approval to accelerate the curriculum a bit. Knowing Albus' attitude to the Ministry I wouldn't be surprised if that were true.

Arthur *would* know about Imperius. As one who dealt with victims of it or as a victim himself? Alas, Imperiurized!Arthur was never confirmed.

"Think it's funny, do you? You'd like it, would you, if I did it to you?" That will be put to test next lesson. Interesting that it is a DE who makes the students think of the difference in perspective between a spectator and a victim. Of course he is not just a perpetrator but a former victim himself.

"I could make it jump out of the window, drown itself, throw itself down one of your throats ..." - Thanks to Elkins for pointing out those were exactly Barty's fears - that his father would force him to commit suicide. Especially after the QWC, when it turned out he could throw the curse off and Winky was no longer around to supervise him.

I can see how practice can help recognize when one is under Imperius and therefore one needs to resist it, but how does one avoid being hit by it? Perhaps Barty was trying to give the students a false sense of security - imagining they'd be able to recognize the wand movement or the beginning of the incantation?

(BTW Ron only knew one Unforgivable Curse, and he wasn't completely certain about that one either. I guess Arthur never mentioned the other 2? Nor did, say, the AK come up in the context of how Molly's brothers died?)

It is so creepy to know that it is Barty inviting Neville to speak about the Cruciatus. Yes, it was popular once. With you. (Don't worry, it wasn't the spider Hermione was being compassionate for. Still, I like it that she opposed a teacher for an upset classmate.)

OK, in a class that includes several purebloods and at least one wizarding-raised half-blood, how come Hermione is the only one who knows about the AK?

Harry is the only one who survived the AK. Unless you count all those who managed to duck behind something or conjure a blocking object in time.

The use of any Unforgivable on a fellow human being earns you a life sentence in Azkaban. Casting them on spiders is fine. As well as on human beings who aren't your fellows, I suppose. That can sometimes be gallant, if you are the right kind of person.

Oh, how the Gryffindors enjoyed the demonstration of Dark Arts in class! A pity Hogwarts only teaches defense, really!

If Neville and Harry (and Hermione, of course) were disturbed by the class but Ron wasn't - does this mean Imperiurized!Arthur is false?

Now I'm wondering how this lesson went with the 4th year Slytherins. Did they know the names of the Unforgivables? Did they pretend not to know? Did 'Moody' taunt Draco with the Imperius Curse? Whom did he taunt with the others?

'Moody' invites Neville to tea. So spooky when one knows who that is. I wonder how Neville reflects on his interactions with 'Moody' later on, when he learns the truth. Because Harry is completely unperturbed that it was a DE who gave him the idea to become an Auror.

Moody attacks first, asks questions later. Does anyone need more evidence the real one was a Gryffindor?

Oh, Neville received a book about water plants. Which Harry will need later that year. But as Neville is mostly invisible to Harry the book won't be of any help.

Barty's act is going fine - Harry is now comparing him to Remus.

Harry and Ron are making up predictions for Divination. Oddly they actually do reflect the events of the coming year, though on a more extended schedule: danger of burns - may be about the skrewts, as Ron says, but also about the dragon Harry will face in almost 3 months. Losing a treasured possession - foreshadows the second task. Getting stabbed in the back by someone Harry thought was a friend - Ron's reaction to Harry's name emerging from the goblet, or 'Moody' turning out to be a DE who attempts to kill Harry? I'm not sure what losing a fight or a bet were about, though this is Hogwarts so there's always a lot of fighting going on, and of course this is the year of gambling.

Since Hermione isn't around to tell them off, Crookshanks is doing it for her. Why don't you go snarling at 'Moody', Crookshanks?

The twins are conspiring about blackmailing Ludo, again. (No, Crookshanks doesn't care about that either.)

Ron seems to be drowning twice. Well, he will be underwater for hours on end. Does this count? OTOH Harry dying by decapitation is a bit of a stretch - Voldmeort likes the AK, that leaves the victim's body intact.

Here comes SPEW, with 50 badges! Ron is treasurer, because he is so financially responsible and Harry is secretary, because Hermione said so.

Hermione's research revealed that elves have been enslaved for centuries, but not anything about what magic is involved to enforce their status. She came up with goals for her campaign without any input from the elves themselves, which shows just how much she believes in treating them as persons with wills of their own.

Hedwig is back with Sirius' reply. It took her under 2 weeks to fly from Surrey to whichever tropical location Sirius was staying at and back to Scotland. Sirius decides that things are serious enough to justify his return, but Harry blows it off. Doesn't he remember that Peter escaped? That Albus believed Trelawney's prophecy about him returning Voldemort to power was true? Wouldn't that put him in danger? (And not only him...)

Later we will learn that Sirius also reported about Harry's dream to Albus. So at this moment Albus knows the following: Peter left Hogwarts in June, probably on his way to Albania. Bertha Jorkins disappeared in Albania not long afterwards. Tom left Albania (must have been reported by Albus' 'sources') and must have arrived in Britain recently. Albus may already be aware of Frank Bryce's disappearance in Little Hangleton, (Or he may find out this tidbit later on.) Also, someone loyal to Voldemort was (probably) present at the QWC.

Comments

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

If we really wanted to be picky, we should go back to the night Dumbledore is telling Severus that Lily is dead. Because really, Dumbledore made a 'deal' with Severus.

...

To me, Dumbledore did not keep his end of the deal, well unless there is someone out their that considers Lily being dead equals safe.

Well, sure. Rowling addresses that 'transition' - from wanting to protect Lily to safeguarding her son - in that train of memories in DH:

"I thought…you were going…to keep her…safe…"

"She and James put their faith in the wrong person," said Dumbledore. "Rather like you, Severus. Weren't you hoping that Lord Voldemort would spare her?"

Snape's breathing was shallow.

"Her boy survives," said Dumbledore.

With a tiny jerk of the head, Snape seemed to flick off an irksome fly.

"Her son lives. He has her eyes, precisely her eyes. You remember the shape and color of Lily Evans's eyes, I am sure?"

"DON'T!" bellowed Snape. "Gone…dead…"

"Is this remorse, Severus?"

"I wish…I wish I were dead…"

"And what use would that be to anyone?" said Dumbledore coldly. "If you loved Lily Evans, if you truly loved her, then your way forward is clear."

Snape seemed to peer through a haze of pain, and Dumbledore's words appeared to take a long time to reach him.

"What – what do you mean?"

"You know how and why she died. Make sure it was not in vain. Help me protect Lily's son."

"He does not need protection. The Dark Lord has gone – "

"The Dark Lord will return, and Harry Potter will be in terrible danger when he does."

There was a long pause, and slowly Snape regained control of himself, mastered his own breathing. At last he said, "Very well. Very well. But never – never tell, Dumbledore! This must be between us! Swear it! I cannot bear…especially Potter's son…I want your word!"

Dumbledore doesn't *force* Snape to upgrade their pact, although he puts a bit of (emotional) pressure on the death eater, persuading him to transfer his lust (I don't believe it was true love) for Lily into a desire to protect her son.

You might not think Snape made the correct decision, but at least Rowling connected the dots and wrote of that decision; Snape's continuing allegiance to Dumbledore isn't one of her many errors.

It almost seemed every discussion I got into people were extra rude to Snape fans ... Fans of characters like Harry or whoever would automatically shoot you down if you even dared to offer some ideas and theories about the character of Snape.

Well, Snape's a nasty bloke and Harry's 'enemy' on all levels but the most important (!). And we don't know that they're on the same side of the big war until one of the last chapters of the entire series. So most readers - being on the side of the protagonist, the eponymous Harry Potter of the series - would therefore share Harry's dislike of Snape.

I think I've read the occasional post here and there which tries to make Snape out as a real goodie-goodie where he really wasn't. He was a murdering death eater (although maybe the 'murdering' part is fanon, not canon?). A pureblood bigot. A bad teacher (oh God, not another 200 comments off that observation!?!). He wanted Sirius kissed. Probably other stuff. Actually I'm not convinced right now that he did all he could to stop the Ministry invasion by the kids at the end of OotP.

But yeah, when it came down to the biggest issue, Snape doing the 'right thing', picking the right side of the war, I have to acknowledge that he was one of the good guys. Although Rowling's writing was just so bad, things were so confused and such a shambles, that realisation really made no emotional impact on me, I still can't really 'feel' it. There should have been a big OH MY GOD HE WAS ON OUR SIDE reaction from Harry which I don't think we ever got. But by that stage of DH I was totally disengaged, there was just so much failure in the pages before it.

But, thinking about it, that corny and horrible 'Albus Severus' thing ... okay, I see how Rowling was trying to make that point. Maybe. I mean, 'bravery' wouldn't have been the sole adjective I would have used to try and make her point, encapsulating the Snape-was-a-hero-of-the-war-after-all case in a single word.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Dumbledore doesn't *force* Snape to upgrade their pact, although he puts a bit of (emotional) pressure on the death eater, persuading him to transfer his lust (I don't believe it was true love) for Lily into a desire to protect her son.


I'd have to question that, considering as you feel the need to point out, Even though at that point Severus wasn't a death eater.

Because if it was only lust I don't believe he would ever go to that extreme for lust only. IF it was only lust all he had to do was either kidnap Lily, being that as you point out, He was a death eater. I doubt if that was Severus' only motive in reguards to Lily was lust then he certainly wouldn't have had any hesitation on kidnapping her - IF it was only lust and not some form of love. Plus IF it was only lust he could just make a polyjuice potion, kidnap any female and make her look like Lily. IF it was only lust. I think it had to be more than lust.


You might not think Snape made the correct decision, but at least Rowling connected the dots and wrote of that decision; Snape's continuing allegiance to Dumbledore isn't one of her many errors.

I don't know but you seem to want it both ways, everything was either bad about it or there was some truth in it. You're choosing to say she did XYZ exactly right for your point, but you're deciding not to agree on another point. And again, Dumbledore still failed. Severus even through his greef decided to still follow Dumbledore, and then in the end, He still got burned because Harry had to die. And STILL even after that he still followed through with is duty. At that point I think it was more than Lust or love, clearly my opinion. But I don't think it was only lust and I don't think it was only love at the end.

To me there is way more than just lust that canon is showing us about Snape.

Well, Snape's a nasty bloke and Harry's 'enemy' on all levels but the most important (!). And we don't know that they're on the same side of the big war until one of the last chapters of the entire series. So most readers - being on the side of the protagonist, the eponymous Harry Potter of the series - would therefore share Harry's dislike of Snape.

I was an adult when I got into the series, I never viewed it the way you are describing above, so I think you are speaking for yourself, not everyone who read the series saw it the way you're saying. I didn't see it as you are describing. I believed more would come of it than he was just a nasty bloke; so maybe you bought into Harry's POV, I didn't.

I think I've read the occasional post here and there which tries to make Snape out as a real goodie-goodie where he really wasn't. He was a murdering death eater (although maybe the 'murdering' part is fanon, not canon?). A pureblood bigot. A bad teacher (oh God, not another 200 comments off that observation!?!). He wanted Sirius kissed. Probably other stuff. Actually I'm not convinced right now that he did all he could to stop the Ministry invasion by the kids at the end of OotP.


I've never described snape as a goodie-goodie but I've seen pleanty of objective people get jumped on for no reason. All of your arguments against Snape can be true but there is pleanty of evidence to argue against all the points you make. Clearly they've been done to death and you should probably know by now what all the arguments are.

As far as the ministry goes, You seem to be taking Harry's line. Harry was fine with blaming everyone else but himself. I haven't seen many Harry fans really say, yep that was all Harry fault. There is always an excuse there for him that it was someone else who needed to be blamed. Or someone else who didn't do enough for Harry.

IF it's okay to excuse Harry's flaws in the Ministry battle not why not an excuse for Severus as well since it really wasn't his doing to go off to the ministry to try to save the world, which at that point didn't really need saving.

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

Because if it was only lust I don't believe he would ever go to that extreme for lust only.

I don't think Snape's feelings for Lily were lust-based, at least not solely. If they were, his feelings for her would have waned over the years since her death.

He knew her since they were nine years old, too young for him to be "lusting" after her in the sexual context. Obsessed with her, yes. Possessive, yes. Controlling, yes, at least he'd try to be.

But not "lust" per se.

I've never described snape as a goodie-goodie but I've seen pleanty of objective people get jumped on for no reason.

I've never met a Snape fan who ever saw him, or described him as, a "goodie-goodie"...

His character was ascerbic and nasty, he held onto grudges and took those grudges out on the children of the peers he perceived as having wronged him.

But he is also the most intelligent character in the series; and it turned out that he had the strongest moral compass of all the characters.

The reason we Snape fans like him so much is because he is such a flawed man; he is the most complex character in the series, and if Rowling could have created such complexity with the other characters, it would have been a truly great saga.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly, lights a candle for June and her must better explaination than mine.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Dumbledore doesn't *force* Snape to upgrade their pact, although he puts a bit of (emotional) pressure on the death eater, persuading him to transfer his lust (I don't believe it was true love) for Lily into a desire to protect her son.

I'd have to question that, considering as you feel the need to point out, Even though at that point Severus wasn't a death eater.

Because if it was only lust I don't believe he would ever go to that extreme for lust only --

A bad choice of word; I'll retract it. Snape's ... affection ... for Lily may have been more than lust (which I see as purely physical. Like the attraction that comprises Harry/Ginny) but it fell short of sincere fair dinkum 'love'. If Snape had been fully 'in love' with Lily he would have wanted her to be HAPPY; that's one of the purest symptoms of real love, putting the other's happiness ahead of your own. And wanting Lily to be happy would have meant Snape desiring all three Potters to be saved. He goes to Dumbledore only begging for Lily's life.

But okay, bad word, I can accept Snape's affection/infatuation/crush as being more than simple physical attraction/lust.

I don't know but you seem to want it both ways, everything was either bad about it or there was some truth in it. You're choosing to say she did XYZ exactly right for your point, but you're deciding not to agree on another point.

There's no contradiction in what I said/believe at all. The HP series consists of many bits and pieces; some/most Rowling implemented badly. As a whole the series was a disaster. As a whole the last book was a catastrophe.

But you were discussing one specific item; the transition of Snape's reason to be loyal to Dumbledore. Initially a bargain to keep Lily safe, then transformed into an agreement to protect her son. That's something Rowling did actually address, quite clearly. OMG, she got something right!!!!! :-O

As far as the ministry goes, You seem to be taking Harry's line. Harry was fine with blaming everyone else but himself.

OotP is the only HP book I've read twice, but the last perusal was back in 2005. Hmmm. I think Harry has to shoulder most/all of the blame for that fiasco, what blame there is to go around. I mean, in the end he was a dupe of the dark lord, it's not like he *wanted* to put everyone in danger. But he was lazy, he'd deliberately not practised his Occlumency lessons, etc.

He would have dashed off without thought but then Hermione got him to try and contact Sirius. And they tipped off Snape. So - with Hermione's interference - he/they did try to take precautions.

I don't recall the couple of sentences where he tries to tell Snape what's happening - Umbridge is there too, right, they couldn't talk openly? - but I do wonder if Snape couldn't have done something - and done it sooner - to stop them from going. Maybe not.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

Stop them from going at all? No. It's *possible* that Snape didn't tell the Order as soon as he might have that Harry had run off somewhere, presumably to the Ministry, but he couldn't've stopped them from going.

Harry's in Umbridge's office when he conveys to Snape that Sirius is in the Ministry. Snape pretends not to understand, then immediately goes to contact Sirius to find out whether he's left GP.

While he's doing that, Hermione comes up with her plan, and she, Harry, and Umbridge go off to the Forbidden Forest. ...Stuff happens, the other kids get away from the Inquisitorial Squad, and join Harry and Hermione in the forest shortly after the centaurs, Umbridge, and Grawp leave.

The kids leave directly from the forest. Snape had probably finished talking to Sirius by that point, but he wouldn't've had any idea where the kids were. He couldn't have stopped them.


Now, as to how quickly he alerted the Order... that's more awkward. Even if Snape alerted them as soon as he *realized* the kids were gone, how quickly would he realize it? Would he look for them immediately afterward, assuming that they wouldn't trust him to handle it? Maybe he should have, since he does consider Harry to be an idiot, and in this case, Harry was indeed behaving stupidly. I'm not sure how quickly he could've done it, though, considering the size of the castle and the fact that he must have assumed Umbridge to be around somewhere, and newly suspicious of anything he might do to help Harry. His ability to find Harry and tell him would be limited by the fact that Harry might still be with Umbridge, or that Umbridge might have had someone in the Inquisitorial Squad keeping an eye on Harry.

I dunno, but I do think that Snape puts enough priority on keeping Harry alive that he wouldn't delay *after realizing* that Harry was in danger. I mean, in PoA, he could've risked the kids' lives by getting help before charging into the Shrieking Shack to get revenge on Lupin and Sirius, but he didn't. Even though he put himself in more danger by failing to get anyone to help him.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

that's one of the purest symptoms of real love, putting the other's happiness ahead of your own. And wanting Lily to be happy would have meant Snape desiring all three Potters to be saved. He goes to Dumbledore only begging for Lily's life.

Love is like an onion, it has layers...wait maybe thats Shrek.

Is it just me but I don't know if happiness was on Snape's top agenda at that point. I think it was make sure Lily doesn't get killed. Plus I'm inclined to believe that Severus believed and knew Lily's nature. But he also knew James nature. Maybe in his mind his brain told him without a doubt that Lily would be the one who would protect the child before anyone else.

I doubt Severus believed James was a noble self-sacrificing sort of man. Severus image of James was very flawed.

So one could imagine that Severus knew if anyone was in danger of standing in front of the baby and getting killed for the baby would be Lily.

Although I could be putting more thought into it than even the character did. I have a feeling the only thing Severus was thinking, this is my fault, Lily is going to die because of me...who can help me...Dumbledore, he can save her, etc. etc. I really don't think Severus would have been 100% logical in the way you are suggesting.

That's something Rowling did actually address, quite clearly. OMG, she got something right

What did she get right that Snape loved Lily? You say he lusted after her. So Snape only wanted to get naked with Lily and do the nasty? really, is that all he wanted. If he was just a heartless git one would have thought this dark arts loving bad guy could have easily solved that problem years ago.

If that was all it was and all he was then I think we'd have a different story.


I don't recall the couple of sentences where he tries to tell Snape what's happening - Umbridge is there too, right, they couldn't talk openly? - but I do wonder if Snape couldn't have done something - and done it sooner - to stop them from going. Maybe not.

Well see I wasn't really talking about what happened in book per say; with the characters. I was talking about many times when the Ministry situation is brought up, certain fans will go right for Snape, and rarely ever blame Harry. I'm not talking about you but I have been in discussions where people tend to ignore Harry's part or gloss it over but go straight for Snape, suggesting he was to blame.

So what I'm getting at is, Harry was really the one who took that on himself. As in, IF he had never gone to the Ministry, well we'd clearly have a differnet ending in the story OOTP.

Problem I have seen is some people will go right for Snape, like I said, have been in discussions in the past and and seen it happen.

So when you bring up Snape and say he should have done 'something' or 'more' it just tends to make me think of those other discussions, where people cut Harry all the slack and just like Harry did, lay the blame on Snape.

IF people can excuse harry in that situation, (fans I mean not characters) then Snape should get just as much of a pass.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Maybe in his mind his brain told him without a doubt that Lily would be the one who would protect the child before anyone else. ... So one could imagine that Severus knew if anyone was in danger of standing in front of the baby and getting killed for the baby would be Lily.

Although I could be putting more thought into it than even the character did.

Yes you are. Plus you're thinking in entirely the wrong direction.

It's not a matter of 'who could protect Harry'.

It's a matter of (a) protecting Lily and (b) making her happy.

If Snape had truly loved Lily then (b) would have been important to him. And he knew that she wouldn't be happy - to understate things - if she lost her husband and son.

Yet Snape never considered saving them too. That's why he 'disgusted' Dumbledore. That's why we know he wasn't truly in love with Lily.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Yes you are. Plus you're thinking in entirely the wrong direction.,/I>

Oh hell no, back it up. Don't tell me what direction to think...because I'm pretty damn good with a map.

When Snape went to Dumbledore he was only thinking of Lily becasue THAT is who he was in love with, Or as you say...it was lust.

There's a think line between being a hero and being in lust...(Sorry Optimus Prime, I changed your tag line)

Sorry, I think it was more than your lust theory. Maybe it wasn't perfect love as you believe it to be - but I guess we'll leave that perfect love in the HP universe to Harry and Ginny and Ron and Hermione...and lets not forget James and Lily.

Those three couples are the symbol of perfect all powerful love in the HP series.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Yes you are. Plus you're thinking in entirely the wrong direction.,/I>

Oh hell no, back it up. Don't tell me what direction to think...because I'm pretty damn good with a map.

When Snape went to Dumbledore he was only thinking of Lily becasue THAT is who he was in love with, Or as you say...it was lust.

There's a thin line between being a hero and being in lust...(Sorry Optimus Prime, I changed your tag line)

Sorry, I think it was more than your lust theory. Maybe it wasn't perfect love as you believe it to be - but I guess we'll leave that perfect love in the HP universe to Harry and Ginny and Ron and Hermione...and lets not forget James and Lily.

Those three couples are the symbol of perfect all powerful love in the HP series.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty damn good with a map.

I'm glad you told me, Karen, because it didn't look like it from your post. :-)

Or as you say...it was lust.

I retracted the 'lust' word; maybe that was in a comment to someone else. I see 'lust' as purely physical, like the totality of the Harry/Ginny canon relationship. I see Snape's regard for Lily as somewhere in between 'lust' and 'true love'.

But it wasn't true love.

Those three couples are the symbol of perfect all powerful love in the HP series.

That's a different topic but ... OH MY GOODNESS NO!!! H/G 'true love'? Ugh. R/Hr? Eww.

Actually, on second thought ... maybe their canon affection *is* 'true love', by my definition, maybe not; I'm not sure the 'thinking only of the other's happiness' test is raised for those two couples? They're just based on such flimsy and offensive foundations they can't be taken seriously and doesn't hold up on other grounds, IMO.

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

I think I've read the occasional post here and there which tries to make Snape out as a real goodie-goodie where he really wasn't. He was a murdering death eater (although maybe the 'murdering' part is fanon, not canon?). A pureblood bigot. A bad teacher (oh God, not another 200 comments off that observation!?!). He wanted Sirius kissed. Probably other stuff. Actually I'm not convinced right now that he did all he could to stop the Ministry invasion by the kids at the end of OotP.

1) We don't know what Snape did in the DEs except for spying. Nothing else is mentioned.

2) Since he was a halfblood, it would be kind of hard for him to be a pureblood bigot, unless you're suggesting his self-hatred extended to his own blood status. Again, we have no canonical indication of that. If you mean he must be pro-pureblood because he was a DE, that doesn't follow. We don't know why he joined them. Voldemort was running a cult, and cult recruiters are notoriously dishonest when they're trying to persuade somebody to join.

3) I agree Snape had no business being a teacher of young kids, or incompetent potioneers of any age. He would probably be a great teacher for older teens and adults who were good at potions and highly motivated to learn.

4) So what if he wanted Sirius Kissed? This was a man who had tried to get him horribly murdered, and still showed no remorse about that act. I'd want revenge on the bastard, too. Not to mention that Snape wanted Sirius Kissed, not for his own sake, but because he thought Sirius had gotten Lily killed.

You're also imposing your own cultural notions on the Potterverse. We may see Kissing as a fate worse than death, but in the Potterverse, it's a government-approved punishment. Sirius was guilty, of many crimes. We're not talking about "honor killing" an innocent woman for getting raped.

5) As for the kids at the Ministry scene--oh, for heaven's sake! You know nobody can tell Harry anything when he wants to go off half-cocked like that. Certainly not somebody he regards as an enemy such as Snape.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Since he was a halfblood, it would be kind of hard for him to be a pureblood bigot --

Doesn't he call Lily a 'mudblood'? That's pretty decisive, isn't it?

So what if he wanted Sirius Kissed? ... I'd want revenge on the bastard, too.

Okay, so you concede that it would be a case of revenge. While understandable, that's not really a good thing.

You know nobody can tell Harry anything when he wants to go off half-cocked like that. Certainly not somebody he regards as an enemy such as Snape.

I dunno, I keep wondering if Snape could have - say - said something like "Headmistress, I do believe Mr. Potter needs some immediate detention to teach him to be civil towards we professors", something to keep Harry confined at Hogwarts while he - Snape - could sort things out.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

Um. Not sure if you've read my other post yet, but...

Harry was already in Umbridge's office, and she showed no signs of letting him or his friends go. Why on earth would he recommend detention when they're quasi-under arrest?

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

Okay, so you concede that it would be a case of revenge. While understandable, that's not really a good thing.

Maybe not admirable, but not especially worthy of condemnation when you consider that his revenge for nearly being killed amounts to... a citizen's arrest. It's a reasonable basis for wanting revenge, and it's a very reasonable kind of revenge to take.

(The fact that law enforcement in the WW is insane is something else again, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect him to defy the law, either, particularly not for Sirius' sake.)

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Lest we forget that the most noble Black and most honorable Remus Lupin were willing to kill the guy that would prove Sirius Black innocence.

I say that Remus and Sirius are dumbasses - for their lack of thinking, for their stupidity and for their all around bad form.

They were going to murder Peter Petigrew right there in front of Hermione, Ron and Harry.

Are we gonna trivialze Black and Lupins need of revenge or are we completely ignore it. Maybe we're just forgetting it, opps, tralala, when did that happen in canon. About the same time, lotta revenge going on there.

OMG Severus wanted revenge on Sirius Black?

Sirius Black si that the same guy he thought betrayed his one true love...and he wanted revenge on the bastard? Nooo? Say it ain't so. Severus should have blasted him into oblivian the moment he saw him if he was only a revenge seeking brainless death eater.

That he dislikes the guy who abused him in school and the guy who he beleived betrayed Lily. The idea of getting even with that guy makes Severus evil? Poor Sirius Black, I feel so sorry for him and his desire to take revenge on Peter Petigrew.

Someone please, show me which revenge makes you a good guy? The need for revenge happen right in the same section of the book.

I guess the good guys desire for revenge gets a pass and bad old Severus' need for revenge...well thats just so horrible and makes him EEevvviillll.

(needs to bite something)

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

Doesn't he call Lily a 'mudblood'? That's pretty decisive, isn't it?

No. I figured out when I was a child that it's not what people say that matters, but what they do. If Snape had really been a bigot, he wouldn't have had Lily for a friend, let alone been "in love" with her. It's more likely he'd gotten in the habit of using that word while in the dorm in an attempt to fit in, and it slipped out under stress. Besides, you forget Lily herself had no problem with his use of the term--until he applied it to her. I agree with those who think she wanted to break off their friendship and was just waiting for him to give her an excuse.

Okay, so you concede that it would be a case of revenge.

Among other reasons. Interesting that you leave those out. As with your argument that Snape should have wanted Lily to be happy, even if it was with his worst enemy, you impose an expectation of generosity of spirit on him that you apply to no one else in the Potterverse.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I agree with those who think she wanted to break off their friendship and was just waiting for him to give her an excuse.

But Snape gave her that excuse. Called his friend a bad, prejudiced, 'blood bigot' name.

Don't worry about what Lily did with that ammunition. Damn Snape for issuing it in the first place.

Okay, so you concede that it would be a case of revenge.

Among other reasons. Interesting that you leave those out.

Revenge with 'other reasons' is revenge with chips is revenge. It's revenge. It's a bad thing. Worry about ameliorating circumstances or 'other reasons' when you're deciding punishment. But it's clear that Snape is guilty of the crime - wanting revenge.

... you impose an expectation of generosity of spirit on him that you apply to no one else in the Potterverse.

No. I impose an expectation based on my definition of "real love". Snape fails the test.

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

But Snape gave her that excuse. Called his friend a bad, prejudiced, 'blood bigot' name.

Don't worry about what Lily did with that ammunition. Damn Snape for issuing it in the first place.

Again, you're ignoring the fact Lily had no problem with his calling other people that; she only got bent out of shape when her ox was gored. While Snape was wrong for using a racist term, I think his alleged bigotry is balanced out by her hypocrisy.

Worry about ameliorating circumstances or 'other reasons' when you're deciding punishment. But it's clear that Snape is guilty of the crime - wanting revenge.

So having certain thoughts and feelings is a crime now? We have just left the Potterverse and entered the Orwellverse.

I impose an expectation based on my definition of "real love". Snape fails the test.

So does everyone else in the Potterverse. For all Rowling's blather about "love" and "Christian values," there's nary a sign of genuine love, generosity, or forgiveness in these books. But I don't see you hammering every other character for being shallow, petty, vindictive, etc. At least Snape didn't exact revenge when he had the chance, as Karen points out below. That makes him the moral superior to your precious Hermione the Mutilator.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

At least Snape didn't exact revenge when he had the chance, as Karen points out below

I would like to point out that my moral outrage meter goes off the charts because of the revenge accusations; mostly because I saw good characters feeding on the same kinda desires.

If Severus wanted revenge on Sirius Black, then why? Was his desire for what he believed as justice any less real than Sirius Black and Remus Lupin, or harry's when he wanted to get even with Bellatrix for killing Sirius?

Revenge is for Legos:

Severus gets hit with the spear of morality and it goes a little something like this:













Okay, so I know it's cheesy but who doesn't love lego's dipped in revenge.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Don't worry about what Lily did with that ammunition. Damn Snape for issuing it in the first place.

The question is, have you ever said anything hurtful or mean to anyone you love or care about. How about thought it? How about yelled at someone you love even when you knew you were wrong or done something to hurt someone you love.

Comeon madderbrad, really think about it, have you ever had bad thoughts or ever said something you regret to someone you love?

How about have you ever done it when you were being humilated and abused in front of a whole school? Comeon mb...seriously, think about Snape calling Lily and mudblood and reflect on your own personal life. Have you ever hurt someone you loved by saying something mean, thoughtless or insesitive?

>i>Revenge with 'other reasons' is revenge with chips is revenge. It's revenge. It's a bad thing. Worry about ameliorating circumstances or 'other reasons' when you're deciding punishment. But it's clear that Snape is guilty of the crime - wanting revenge.

Revenge, all this talk of revenge...So is Sirius Black and Remus Lupin as I've already pointed out. And if I really want to get serious so is Harry, running after Bellatrix and doing some unforgivables.

But nevermind that, I forget that Snape was in lust and a evil bastard who wanted revenge on someone...The good characters would never be so dishonorable to want revenge.

No. I impose an expectation based on my definition of "real love". Snape fails the test.

Who doesn't fail the test? I haven't met a human yet who doesn't say horrible things when they get angry. I've always been a firm believer that the only people who can really, reall hurt you are the people that love you.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Doesn't he call Lily a 'mudblood'? That's pretty decisive, isn't it?

Wait, wasn't that the girl at 9 years old he said it didn't matter if she was a mudblood and wait...wasn't that the girl he was supposed to be in love with.

Oh wait thats right, you said it was not love, it was only lust.

Okay, so you concede that it would be a case of revenge. While understandable, that's not really a good thing.

Last I checked Severus was the one that found them after the dementor attack at the end of POA. They were uncontious, Severus could have done anything to Sirius at that point and nobody would have been the wiser.

Yet he didn't do anything except he conjured stretchers and took them up to the castle. Severus says, "All unconscious by the time I reached them. I bound and gagged Black, naturally, conjured stretchers, and brought them all straight back to the castle."

Noice he didn't call the dementors back to finish sucking out Sirius soul, he didn't take Sirius away to where the dementors retreated; as the dementors apparently retreated back to their positions at the entrances to the castle. In fact Severus would have had to pass a dementor if they were guarding the entrances to the castle. So it sounds to me like they would have had to go past a dementor to get back into Hogwarts.

So IF it was only revenge he was seeing in terms of Sirius, he could have easily given the uncontious Sirius black over to the first Dementor he passed.

Severus did not take the law into his own hands or act on his need for revenge, he turned Sirius over to the people in charge.

And correct me if I'm wrong but Sirius Black and Remus Lupin were going to kill Peter Petigrew in cold blood. Who the hell looks more noble here really? Do you really want to give those two a pass and call Severus a person only seeing revenge on Sirius black, when Lupin and Black were going to cut down a man in front of school children? A man who had no wand and was defensless.

Screw Sirius Black, he isn't any better character than Severus and I'll argue with anyone that thinks he is.

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

/1) We don't know what Snape did in the DEs except for spying. Nothing else is mentioned./

Yes, I think that Bellatrix says something in HBP about Snape not "getting his hands dirty" or actually engaging in combat with the Order or something similar. So, if a fellow Death Eater is saying this, then maybe all Snape really did was spy or offer assistance in potions.

/We may see Kissing as a fate worse than death, but in the Potterverse, it's a government-approved punishment./

Yet nobody - Harry, Hermione, Ron, Dumbledore, etc. - ever says that this barbaric punishment should be abolished or comes up with an alternative. In the epilogue, we're assured that "all is well," but we don't learn what happened with Azkaban and the dementors. At least not in the text.

/5) As for the kids at the Ministry scene--oh, for heaven's sake! You know nobody can tell Harry anything when he wants to go off half-cocked like that. Certainly not somebody he regards as an enemy such as Snape./

Hermione, one of Harry's best friends, tried to get him to calm down by telling him that it could be a trap and what did Harry do? He refused to listen to her, yelled at her, and went charging into the Ministry anyway. If Hermione couldn't persuade Harry to stay where he was, then there's no way that Snape could.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

Yet nobody - Harry, Hermione, Ron, Dumbledore, etc. - ever says that this barbaric punishment should be abolished or comes up with an alternative.

Indeed. What were Harry's exact words, again? Ah, yes:

Harry sat stunned for a moment at the idea of someone having their soul sucked out through their mouth. But then he thought of Black.

“He deserves it,” he said suddenly.

“You think so?” said Lupin lightly. “Do you really think anyone deserves that?”

“Yes,” said Harry defiantly. “For… for some things…”

[...]

Harry half wished that he hadn’t asked what was under a Dementor’s hood, the answer had been so horrible, and he was so lost in unpleasant thoughts of what it would feel like to have your soul sucked out of you that he walked headlong into Professor McGonagall halfway up the stairs.

God knows Lupin has his flaws, but remembering this line of his makes me respect him more.

Severus' Undoubtible heroism, part 2 :)

[oryx_leucoryx]

I think I've read the occasional post here and there which tries to make Snape out as a real goodie-goodie where he really wasn't. He was a murdering death eater (although maybe the 'murdering' part is fanon, not canon?). A pureblood bigot. A bad teacher (oh God, not another 200 comments off that observation!?!). He wanted Sirius kissed. Probably other stuff. Actually I'm not convinced right now that he did all he could to stop the Ministry invasion by the kids at the end of OotP.

Sorry, disagree. There is no evidence he was a murdering DE, and an implication he actually never murdered anyone before killing Dumbles. It's part of the irony that permeates everything regarding Severus - he never killed for Voldemort as his master, the only known killing he performed was for Dumbles. He wasn't a pureblood bigot or even an Uncle Tom. After all, he was the half-blood Prince. Despite what Harry thinks, he never pretended to be pureblood, he always used his Muggle surname. He was as anti-Muggle as anyone else in the wizarding world, from Stan Shunpike to Albus Dumbledore with everyone else included. For a time he participated in the anti-Muggleborn discrimination (whether intentionally or not), but he put it behind him for good. That's heroic behavior - acknowledging one's sins and changing. How many people in the Potterverse do anything like that? (The only others I can think of are Draco and Percy, probably Horace, though to a lesser degree.) And by no means was he a bad teacher. He was an effective and successful teacher. He was a demanding teacher and a strict disciplinarian, neither of which is a sin. I had one very much like him - kids in my school took a while to adapt to him, but those who had him for more than one year ended up liking him, and we would have liked Severus too. Mind, we were 14 when we first encountered this Severus-impersonator.

Yes, he wanted Sirius kissed. Just like Harry wanted Peter. Based on what Severus knew at the moment it was the right thing to want for a mass murderer and traitor (assuming the legitimacy of dementor kiss as punishment). He does not take vigilantist action like Remus and Sirius were going to - he brings Sirius to the authorities. That the punishment the law offers for Sirius is unacceptable by our standards doesn't make Severus bad. His choices were to let the law be applied, take the law in his own hands or let a believed murderer go free. His choice was the best of the available ones, based on what he knew.

The OOTP stuff is hard to argue one way or the other because the timeline for that night is hopelessly broken. Even if we remove him from the equation altogether, the time it takes the kids to walk into the forest vs the time it takes them to fly to London makes no sense whatsoever so we can't argue if Severus had time to contact the Order a second time earlier or not. We do know he searched the forest for them at a time when the centaurs were in a very bad mood. (My personal fanwank was that when he went to his office he took some Felix - that's the only explanation to how he managed to time his warning to the Order so that the kids would be safe without arousing Tom's suspicions. He later told Tom that well, he had to warn the Order or Albus would suspect him, but he delayed as much as possible. Of course he expected Lucius et al to have completed their mission by then.)
Also hard to know with the broken timeline if he had time to come back to the office after talking to Sirius and before the kids left with Umbridge, but in that case he could have said that though he didn't have any Veritaserum on hand he did have this other Truth Serum - fed it to Harry - and have Harry fall unconscious (or start puking or whatever) - 'Sorry, Headmistress, this other Truth Serum looks exactly like Disabling Draught, got mixed up in the rush. Now I'll need to take him down to my office so I can figure out the antidote.' Maybe. But it doesn't seem like he had the time.