Deathly Hallows, chapter 5

[anehan]

Fallen Warrior

* Well, that was boring.

...

All right, all right, I'll do it properly.

* Hagrid is alive. Damn. For a moment, I got hopeful there.

* The Order has placed protective charms on the Tonkses' houses. These charms seem to be able to keep Voldemort away, so why aren't all crucial places protected like this? How come the Death Eaters can get to the Ministry, Hogwarts, the Weasleys, you name it? Why did Amelia Bones die in her home if this kind of protective charms existed?

* Harry wallows in guilt. If something happened to anyone else, it would be his fault for endagering them, never mind that the plan wasn't his idea. Am I the only one who thinks JKR put this charming little display of guilt there so that the readers could assure themselves that of course Harry wasn't guilty of anything wrong, no indeed?

* If JKR wanted to convince me of Harry's ability to feel guilt, maybe she should have made him feel guilty when he really was guilty. Like when he, say, cast the Cruciatus Curse.

* Ted calls Andromeda Dromeda. My, what a hideous nickname. It's a bit too close to "dromedar" for my comfort; it makes me think that Andromeda looks like a camel.

* You know, it just occured to me to wonder why the Order permitted Hermione and Ron take part in this rescue mission. Previously, they've been all about protecting them, even to absurd lenghts. What's changed now?

* Harry is sure no one in the Order would have betrayed him. Considering the fate of his parents, his trust is touching. And by "touching" I mean "naïve".

* George's ear can't be restored, because it's been cursed off. Sounds like something JKR came up with just to make her heroes' life more difficult.

* Molly says she can't make George's ear to grow back, which seems to suggest that in ordinary circumstances she'd be able to do it. I always thought something like growing body-parts back would be a Healer's job.

* Aha! So Sectumsempra is Dark Magic. It still doesn't tell us what this ever-so-dangerous Dark Magic is. The distinction between ordinary and Dark magic has always seemed quite stupid to me. Even the most innocuous charm can be used harmfully.

* "Always the tone of surprise," Ron said. If only he could keep this up he'd be a much more interesting character. Unfortunately JKR seems to find it necessary to make him as stupid as she can, probably to make Harry look better. A guy's got to be really dumb to be dumber than Harry.

* Mad-Eye's dead. Why, of why couldn't it have been Hagrid.

* I really hate Fleur's pseudo-French accent. She's been in England for two years now. One would think she had lost most of it by now.

* "'Ear, 'ear." Very funny. Not.

* "The suddenness and completeness of death was with them like a presence." Now this, this is funny.

* Harry's histrionics are rather amusing as well. Yes, Harry, you've got to leave because your presence puts the others in danger. Never mind that they have chosen to fight this far. Not everything is about you, you know.

* Such a drama-queen, Harry is. One more thing he has in common with Voldemort, in addition of both being orphans, Parselmouths and addicted to the Cruciatus Curse, among other things.

* No one has heard of a wand performing magic on its own. They just haven't met Harry's wand. It's pretty much got to be special since Harry is so dumb he can't tie his shoelaces. Someone's got to know what to do.

* After an obligatory Cruciatus scene (one would think Harry would have enjoyed that, but no, Harry only enjoys Cruciatus Curses he himself casts) the chapter ends. Finally.

* See, I told you. It was boring.



Box Picture:
Harry Potter is The Tortured Hero.

Ken and Andrew's Rule of Plotholes:
Why isn't every place protected by the Order's protective charms?

Selling Wood:
Oh Harry, how tortured you are.

Final score: 3 Why, oh why does nothing happen in these chapters? I'm going crazy here.

Comments

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I swear half this book was raising my hopes that Hagrid was dead and then dashing them and laughing.

Note nobody considers warding the Granger home either...

Oh yeah. Harry just takes so much responsibility on his shoulders. It's not your fault Harry! It's not your fault the world revolves around you!

LOL! I thought the same thing about that nickname.

What a shame Moody's dead. A fallen warrior. Now he won't be able to sit at home and protect himself while the three teenagers fight the war for him.

WTF was up with that "nobody would be betray me!" with Lupin darkly hinting of spies? Okay, we know it's really Snape but it still makes things sound more interesting than they are. Well, actually I guess the real spy is actually Dumbledore, sowing dischord even in death. Tell me that's not supposed to somehow foreshadow Dumbledore's "greyness" in this book.

Not only will Ron get stupider but his "always the tone of surprise" will be echoed by Hermione to suggest that Ron doesn't tell her she's pretty often enough. Please.

If Fleur lost her French accent she wouldn't be French anymore!

Voldemort's wand is gay for Potter's wand. Hee! The feeling is mutual!

[anehan]

I don't understand why Dumbledore had to orchestrate this travesty of a rescue mission and endanger the lives of fourteen people, including his Boy Wonder, just to strengthen Snape's cover. It's not like Snape hadn't already demonstrated his loyalty to Voldemort by killing Dumbledore. There was no need for additional displays.

I wonder if this means that Dumbledore authorized the killing of Emmeline Vance as well just to strengthen Snape's cover. He really doesn't care about other people's lives if they stand in the way of Greater Good™. How is that different than what Voldemort does? "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster."

[aasaylva.livejournal.com]

Dumbledore's greyness
LOL -. it just occurred to me we have a LotR reversal here: Dumbledore changed from White wizard to Grey Wizard!

[tabaquis.livejournal.com]

* No one has heard of a wand performing magic on its own. They just haven't met Harry's wand.

"I need a new wand, mine seems to be gay for Potter's wand."

I'm glad I'm not the only one that had that running through my head!!

[tdotm.livejournal.com]

No need to protect the Grangers home. Or even put them into hiding with the Dursleys (thus leting them share the same protection/guards) Hermione would much rather wipe their minds (at least as harsh as the Imperius). After all, it was the obvious first option.(Where's that roll-eye smiley?)

Poor Ron. He was entitled to make that comment, but Hermione? Who's she, Angelina Jolie? Ron should have left the tent and gone back to Hogwarts, leaving Harry to drown. As Harry took the only wand into the forest and abandoned Hermione (defenceless and asleep) in the tent, she'd have to walk back to civilisation and would be attacked and kissed by a Dementor.

Ron would inherit all of Harry's wealth and Snape would marry Madame Rosmerta.

The End. I wish.

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

Ah yes. I'll repeat my question from when the DH Sporking lot got to this chapter (and pointed out that tedium repeated six times is still tedium):

Q: How does one disapperate from a broomstick?

Ah yes, poor Moody. Fell through a plot hole. *He* isn't stuck having to wade through the rest of this stupid book.

[anehan]

Twist the broom sharply and concentrate on the three Ds: destination, determination and desperation, or whatever they were.

Or, in other words, I have no idea.

[aasaylva.livejournal.com]

How does one disapperate from a broomstick?
Oh come on - it can't be any more difficult than spinning around your own axis while holding onto someone else WHO IS ALSO REQUIRED TO SPIN AROUND HIS AXIS, for crying out loud!

[artystone.livejournal.com]

Honestly I think Hedwig and Moody were the lucky ones here.

[tdotm.livejournal.com]

Why did JKR never question what she wrote? I don't mind the occasional slip if it makes for an exciting plot, but she never ever questioned herself. It would be funny if it wasn't so offensive.

She just had to read a point through and ask herself if it makes sense. We all do it and we're not being paid. Silly Cow.

If she'd done it here, she'd have realised it made no sense and changed direction. Why not have Hagrid as the fallen hero? (Please)

[aasaylva.livejournal.com]

If JKR wanted to convince me of Harry's ability to feel guilt, maybe she should have made him feel guilty when he really was guilty. Like when he, say, cast the Cruciatus Curse.
Harry's paradoxical perception of guilt remind me of C.S.Lewis' take on a lady who feigned to be not greedy at all (in the Christian sinful sense) by hardly ever eating anything while making such a fuss about WHAT she deigned to eat that she troubled her household much more than if she had simply ordered a seven course meal. Harry's pseudo guilt is always directed where it incontrovertibly is misplaced, drawing all the attention from where it would be appropriate while at the same time racing up the pity points. Not.

[anehan]

That's exactly it. It's nauseating, really.

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

Andromeda could give several acceptable nicknames, including: Andy (or Andie), Andra, Dro, Drama, Dromie (at least better than Dromeda), Meda, Medie, or Meddy.

Frankly, Dromeda is right up there with "Mione" as a stupid nickname. And yes, one immediately imagines Andromeda as looking like a camel. The haughty demenaor and burnette coloring help a lot with that, by the way.

[anehan]

Andy would be my choice of a nickname as well. It goes well with Bella and Cissy.

[tdotm.livejournal.com]

When reading DH, boredom is always with us - like a presence.

If you knew someone called Andromeda, wouldn’t you call her Annie? Andi? Or even Meda? But a three syllable nick-name? Hell, what am I complaining about, that’s the least of my problems with this chapter.

There was no earthly reason why Ronnikins and Hermione would be allowed on this mission. I know they’re of age, but they’d only become members of The Order on the say-so of the other members, and Mrs Weasley wuld die before letting anyone over 30 grow up - no doubt why they move to Egypt/Romania/abandon the family all together

You’re right, re-growing an ear does seem like a Healers job. So why didn’t JKR write that they suspected that St Mungos had been infiltrated and they didn’t want to use it except in life threatening circumstances, with no other options? Then George could get his ear back at the end of the book, (small substitute for Fred I know). On the other hand, it took me 5 seconds to come up with that once I read your comments, and JKR wasn’t about to give this story that much thought.

I agree that Dark Magic needed better definition. I’ve always thought that a majority of Dark Magic was only dark in the way it was used. 700 years ago, I can imagine Avada Kevadra being used as a means of execution - more humane then the Dementors Kiss? Also, I had little trouble with Harry/Hermione using the Imperius simply to protect themselves/escape from an exceptional (and bad situation.) It’s truly appalling when used to force someone to act against their will/as a puppet with no self determination (Hermione wiping her parents minds - now that was dark)

I’m fine with them being Unforgiveables, but can see how their use could be interpreted differently. The Cruciatus, however, is 100% dark magic. To cause total agony, to torture - no justification at all, under any circumstances. And which one does Harry use when some git spits at his teacher? What about ‘scourgify’? Harry was long dead to me, but how dare JKR ruin McGonagall? Gallant, my arse! Sorry, got distracted there.

Why would the son of two appallingly betrayed characters, betrayed by their best friend no less, have such an undeveloped sense of self-preservation? I hoped the spy was Hermione - unwittingly passing information on to Death Eater Krum. That’d wipe the smug smile off her suddenly lovely face. Run Ron run! But then I also hoped that Percy was spying on the Ministry for Dumbledore. We now know DD was more than cold enough. How else did he find out that Harry’s Trial in Phoenix had been moved forward? Didn't happen sadly - too much camping to write about to have time to include such things.

Harry breezily ignored his culpability over Sirius’ death, but on every other occasion he’s distraught? His total self absorption, self pity and ‘guilt’ as a means of attracting sympathy get right on my tits. If Molly didn’t inexplicably love him like her own, she could have pointed out to the little punk that she had lost both of her brothers to this cause - before he was even born. The Order, inadequate though they were, would have kept on fighting, because some people always do, no matter how bad the odds.

Why oh why was Harry not the Fallen Hero? The horcrux-lite would be destroyed. It’s not as if he did anything else - name me something essential to the ’plot’ that needed Harry. I’m sure Ron could run Voldie through with the sword of Gryffendor as revenge for Ginny’s brutal, graphic and violent death.

But no, we lose Moody - a character I quite liked, and keep the ‘had run his course’ Hagrid and unbearable Harry. Damn. Farewell Moody, your memory will always be with us - like a presence…..

That phrase, along with the flammable owl, will never get old. Unlike the rest of this nonsense.

[beatnikspinster.livejournal.com]

I agree that Dark Magic needed better definition.
I totally agree. It should start by actually defining magic. I don't think any structure has been applied to magic in these books. No consistent laws. No limitations. No relationship to other natural phenomena. It exists as a plot device and branding. "That's Wizards chess." Uh-huh. That's like "They're Designer shoes." Dark magic can be whatever it's needed to be, because there's nothing to measure it against.

Magic, for all it's used to justify genocide and power struggles, is not taken seriously. Which is sad, especially in light of how it's used to make, then bash, "Muggles".

[sunnyskywalker]

I was so disappointed that Percy apparently never used his Ministry position to pass information or something. I mean, I could understand just fine if he didn't want to pass information to Dumbledore, but why couldn't there be a third side, against Voldemort and Umbridge-types but not Order members either? Heck, why not a parallel, informal organization run by Aberforth, or some Department of Mysteries employees, or heck, why not Snape? I guess that would be too complicated...

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

Oh, man, Percy as Ministry mole would have been great. The trial in Phoenix, information on the infiltration of the Ministry (beginning in HBP, not this suddenness crap), all sorts of things, and yet another Weasley hero (although unsung through most of the books) for Rowling's favorite family. You have to wonder why she didn't go there.

[go-back-chief.livejournal.com]

Hagrid is alive. Damn. For a moment, I got hopeful there.

LOL yes, exactly what I was thinking when I read that chapter. I can't believe that Hagrid actually was one of my favourite characters in the first three or four books.

Oops, hit "post" too soon!

[go-back-chief.livejournal.com]

Am I the only one who thinks JKR put this charming little display of guilt there so that the readers could assure themselves that of course Harry wasn't guilty of anything wrong, no indeed?

Definitely not. Supposedly this is a display of his remarkable ability (bigger than anyone else's ever) to love and feel compassion, too.

If JKR wanted to convince me of Harry's ability to feel guilt, maybe she should have made him feel guilty when he really was guilty.

But he wouldn't be a proper Mary Sue, then. An MS can only feel guilty when it's obvious to everyone that they're not, so that the reader can rush to comfort and assure them that "of course you're not, you're my BIG HEWO" in their own imaginations.

Previously, they've been all about protecting them, even to absurd lenghts. What's changed now?

Harry needs to be protected. Which, of course, is a need that trumps everyone else's need for protection. Duh.

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

* Harry is sure no one in the Order would have betrayed him. Considering the fate of his parents, his trust is touching. And by "touching" I mean "naïve".
What is the point of this? Yes, we know that Snape got information about Harry, so yeah, I guess Lupin's right and Harry's wrong. So... are we supposed to think Harry's stupid?

But then again, Harry proceeds to alienate himself from everyone in the order, including Lupin. So, is he just lying here about trusting everyone? Or does he just revise his thinking later on?

Were we supposed to be suckered into trying to figure out who the mole was--with the payoff being that it was Dumbledore all along? (Heh. With Mundungus as the confunded/imperio'd patsy. So, Dumbledore and Snape were using the very same tactics as the DE's in that little scheme.)

"The suddenness and completeness of death was with them like a presence."

"They all raised their firewhiskey glasses in a tribute to the fallen Moody. Hermione nudged Harry.

"Hsst," she said. "Who is that over by the snacks table? Is that Death?"

Harry glanced surreptitiously at the presence, who was hurried gulping down the cheese and crackers. "I don't think so," he said. "It looks more the Suddenness and Completeness of Death to me."

"Oh," Hermione said, relieved. "That's all right then. I can never tell those two apart."

"Always the tone of surprise," Ron said. If only he could keep this up he'd be a much more interesting character.
It's funny. That line of dialogue keeps playing in my mind. Because it's the sort of bantery-type stuff you'd see in a romantic comedy. Only you'd have the lovers doing it a lot more. JKR does it later on when Ron can't figure out how to get the Weeping Willow open, and Hermione asks him, "Are you a wizard or not?"

What do I want to say here...? I dunno. Just that romantic comedy really isn't JKR's strong suit. This bantery stuff might have worked if it had been part of Hermione and Ron from the beginning, instead of tacked onto the last book.

But... and maybe I'm in the minority here. I just wish she'd gotten Ron and Hermione together in OotP and left it like that. OotP was the last time I liked them as a couple.

[intotheaether.livejournal.com]

"Who is that over by the snacks table? Is that Death?"

If Death from Discworld had been involved in the plot, this book would have been a lot more interesting.

Rant on the Lupin Scene

[cressida0201.livejournal.com]

This is the right chapter, right? I'm not near my book and don't really want to pick it up again anyway. Allow me to reiterate a rant I made about the exchange between Harry and Lupin on a message board last fall:

"In the first place, you're telling me that of all the wizards in the wizarding world, Harry is the only one who sees the value of a spell like expelliarmus and uses it extensively? When it's apparently the standard duelling spell and simple enough that a second-year student can do it? When it supposedly makes you the Rightful Owner of every wand ever owned by the defeated wizard?! (Arrgh, don't get me started on how lame the whole 'wand mastery' thing is!) You're saying no other wizard USES it?

"In the second place, if expelliarmus really is Harry's trademark spell, then why not just TELL all the polyjuiced Potters to use it if they're cornered?

"In the third place, when did Lupin turn into such a ruthless pragmatist? He sounded more like Sirius than like the Lupin of PoA. I'd also be very interested to know just what spell he would have liked Harry to cast instead, given that Harry was trying not to kill someone on a broom. Or does it not matter to him (or JKR) because he and Harry are on the right side, so anything they do is okay?!

"In the fourth place, how can Harry be so sure that Stan's not a Death Eater?! (ETA: You know, in my personal version of canon, Stan is a DE and Harry's just wrong. JKR never said it wasn't so. But please, nobody ask her about it in an interview or she'll certainly say Harry was right.)

"In the fifth place, the whole reason for this scene is apparently to establish that Harry's too noble to use Voldemort's dirty tricks, even when it would be to his advantage to do so. This idea comes back when Harry uses expelliarmus again during his final showdown with Voldemort. So what on EARTH is Harry doing merrily casting Unforgiveables left and right in between those two scenes? Without remorse or any deliberation about whether it's a good idea? And being praised for it?!

"Not only do the later books contradict the messages of the earlier ones, but sometimes DH alone contradicts its own messages!"

Re: Rant on the Lupin Scene

[anehan]

Rant away! This is indeed the right chapter.

I agree with you re: expelliarmus. It just makes no sense. If you don't want to hurt your opponent, expelliarmus is the most logical spell to cast, since wizards seem unable to do anything without a wand.

You know, in my personal version of canon, Stan is a DE and Harry's just wrong.

I agree. Why would the DEs take an imperio'd person to such a delicate mission? Moreover, why imperio someone like Stan? It's not like he can be much use to them.

[savagedamsel10.livejournal.com]

* I really hate Fleur's pseudo-French accent. She's been in England for two years now. One would think she had lost most of it by now.

By this point I tend to blame all stupid things on JKR rather than the characters. But the possible explanation is that Harry is not used to her accent. I once had a friend who lived in India for about 14 years of her 17 year old life. When I first heard her speak all I could hear was her accent because while I have of course heard Indian accents before, I had never heard anyone speak so much like Apu from The Simpsons. (Yeah I know that sounds awful, but it's true!). Over time I got really used to her accent so I didn't really hear anything. It might seem like her accent lessened but people who have only just met her still hear a very obvious accent.

[anehan]

By this point I tend to blame all stupid things on JKR rather than the characters.

Same here. Another possible explanation for Fleur's accent is that she simply is the kind of person who'll never get rid of her accent, but I, for one, will much rather blame Rowling since it's so much more fun. ;-)

[tdotm.livejournal.com]

This is in reply to several posts, rather than the main one. I'm sorry if I haven‘t mentioned most of you by name.

savagedamsel10 - I understand how it feels to get so upset/angry about a character’s treatment - I'll come to Percy later.

psychodeathwish - I always liked Ron, and his humour, but JKR started to increasingly put him down and weaken his character in a (completely failed) attempt to boost Harry. Sadly for him, he was always very popular with a lot of people - especially boys of the target 9-12 yrs age group More so than Harry - not surprising as he was far more relatable. JKR had a chance to really appeal to them by building him up in his own way. He should have got over his fears re: Harry/Hermione in Book 4. The end of Book 5 should see him confident about Quidditch (and rejecting his bully twin brothers' taunting). Book 6 saw a girl fall madly in love with him - not mutual, but should have convinced him of his worth. Especially with Hermione’s display of jealousy, over the top though it was. He was denied all those chances to mature - if he had done, as Cressida0201 said, then romantic banter would have been feasible by Book 7. However his popularity made him a 'threat' so he constantly clung to his insecurities to furnish JKR’s ‘plots’ To an extent where you weren’t criticising his actions, but JKR’s writing. She never realised it though - instead of bringing him out of Harry’s small inconsequential shadow, he remained second to Harry to the end. (And how on earth could that useless Potter become an Auror? I mean once Hermione went her own way?!?)


JKR always tried to control what her audience thought, who they liked and who was regarded as good. (She had little awareness of shades of grey.) Not by forming a character as she wrote, but by reading the fans’ ideas then going back and trying to convince them otherwise in the next book/on her website. This was a serious flaw in her writing - it really messed up her characterisations. I’m sure the Remus fans would agree! Sirius/Remus shippers - well I never saw any attraction between the two, but if others did - who cares! Why didn’t she make more of Sexy Sirius’ female conquests earlier on, if his straightness mattered to her? Why was there an air of desperation and ‘this is happening because I say so’ about Remus and Tonk’s relationship? Some shippers can’t be stopped, but most would limit their beliefs to an alternate universe, not be laughing about her desperate attempts to change their opinions. I mean apparently there are Dumbledore/Firenze stories out there! Ew. People pay their money - they can interpret things as they want. After all, it’s not essential to the plot. n.b. Dumbledore’s gayness doesn’t count as it’s of the safe asexual variety.

Talking of trying to alter the readers opinions, how much did she hate Snape? How much did she want us to hate him? There’ll be opportunities to discuss this at length at a later date I’m sure, but until then, answers on a postcard to JKR c/o Bloomsbury Publishers please.

Savagedamsel10 - Percy was a slightly different case, because he wasn’t constantly being degraded from an original high. He was always the fall guy if that makes it easier. (Bet it doesn’t) I wanted him to be a spy, because I’d have loved for him to illustrate that not all heroes are amusing and handsome. Percy was very pompous, and rather dull but that didn’t make him bad. Self control is a great asset in politics - ask Dumbledore (but not Michael Gambon!) I‘d have loved the rather brutal twins, to both apologise to him and acknowlede how essential his contribution was. .Sadly JKR seems to think that being different is bad. Who was it who said the whole story was mean spirited? I don’t think it was at first, but it definitely ended that way. She threw away the chance to show that there are many ways to make your life count, other than being the super hero/super brain. Though in her defence, Harry was neither…..

[savagedamsel10.livejournal.com]

Agreed in that Percy was and will always meant to be the designated inferior Weasley. Also in that it would have been cool to have someone who wasn't in any way a rebellious Badass work in espionage, since what most spy fiction never tell you is that it is mainly highly dull bureaucratic work and red tape. Perfectissimo!
Even if it wasn't quite espionage, I would still have like Percy contribute on his own terms and in his own way rather than do the Weasley Way Of Things. Yuck. Like I said, if JKR can be ethically mean spirited (It was Ursula Le Guin who said this) than so can I by cheering at Fred's death. And the fact that Ginny is a psycho. And Harry in being Too Dumb To Live.