(no subject)

[mmmarcusz.livejournal.com]

One thing that bothers me about the twins is that no matter what they do, they get away with it. There are never any consequences. When they sneak Harry out of his house, flying a magic car into a Muggle area, there are no legal consequences and Molly blusters but doesn't do anything. When they more or less ignore how badly Ginny's getting on (as do Percy and Ron), and don't notice she's being bewitched, there's no real guilt.

They give Harry the Marauders' Map - what if he disappeared some day - would they have told the authorities that they gave him a method of sneaking out of school? Or just stayed quiet and hoped things worked out?

They slip Dudley Ton-Tongue Toffees - he could have died, but again no consequences. They win their bet with Bagman (it was never explained how they knew it - maybe they used magical means in an early draft) but never face consequences (given that the Ministry is notoriously corrupt, it's surprising that Ludo is always on the defensive, and never tries to e.g. get Arthur fired or have the twins prosecuted for their illegal testing). And then Harry hands them a pile of cash, because there are no more worthy causes.

In OOTP, they spy on Order meetings (how bad is the security?) but no DEs seem to exploit this. They also drop out of school without qualifications - unlike in real life, where this would lead to months of them sitting about in the Burrow doing nothing, they instead become master businessmen.

In HBP, their shop sells stuff that is obviously dangerous if exploited, but even when the DEs use their powder, no-one blames them for selling it, or questions a society that allows such weapons to be owned.

In DH, Fred is killed, but a heroic death in battle. It would be much more likely for him to be killed in one of the twins' experiments gone wrong - this would actually force George to undergo some sort of reflection or growth as a character - but as it is, it confirms that Fred was great and everything the twins did was great.

Comments

[detritius.livejournal.com]

This. JK lets her "good" characters get away with way too much, and the twins are probably the most egregious example. (I was so sure someone was going to call them on the DEs using one of their products to break into Hogwarts, but no, nothing ever came of it.) The whole lack of moral responsibility is one of the first things about the series that started to make me wary, even before Dh -- I think CoS, with Ron's broken wand and Catmione, is the last time any of the protagonist suffer real consequences for their actions. I can't think of a single instance in seven books when Harry ever did.

[the-bitter-word.livejournal.com]

Sirius' death?

However, yeah, Harry certainly doesn't dwell, and nobody calls him on his fatal mistakes. The good people are so understanding of the burdens he carries.

It's like Severus is vilified for killing Dumbledore, but Harry is rarely called into account for feeding Dumbledore a cursed potion in the cave, leading to Dumbledore's weakened state and inability to physically deal with Draco. Yet both of them were following orders. Severus can only watch while Voldemort kills Charity Burbage, and the Trio only watch while Voldemort kills Severus. Who get the blame for just watching someone die?

[detritius.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, Sirius's death was Harry's fault, wasn't it? I guess I forget because Harry never takes responsibility for it (he finds a way to blame Snape, doesn't he?) and no one but the readers ever seem to call him on it.

No one Harry respects ever calls him on anything -- the "gallant" Crucio comes to mind -- and any time someone does try to punish him for something he's done wrong, like assaulting certain Slytherins, the person punishing Harry is treated as totally unfair and evil, so Harry never really has to think about what he's done. He gets to feel all persecuted that he doesn't get to play Quidditch instead. Sigh.

Poor Snape. He's one of the few characters in the series that seems to have something like a conscience, and lots of people, including the author, treat him like he's the bad guy. In the situations you mentioned, Snape had the better reason to stand by while someone was dying, because he had to keep his cover in order to potentially save many more lives. Whereas, the Trio just watched Snape die because they're idiots, I guess, and once again, we aren't supposed to think badly of them for it.

[the-bitter-word.livejournal.com]

And yet they end up one dead and the other trying to live the dead one's life with the dead one's ex-girlfriend! Worse, Harry doesn't name one of his kids after them! (Although, correct me if I'm wrong. Potter facts are getting fuzzier these days.)

You forgot trying to get their brother to make an Unbreakable Vow, feeding a salamander a Filibuster firework, nearly causing their teammate to bleed to death with a Nosebleed Nougat, and incessantly picking on Percy.

Though I find them generally repellent, I don't get too worked up over the twins. And, double standards abound in these books. Take a look at the inventors of new ways to use magic. Draco is plenty clever, but he's always pathetic, directing his efforts against Potter mostly, and then towards avenging or saving his family, instead of just creating generalized chaos or profiting from others' slacking off or attacking a Muggle child. Severus was probably like Draco, creating spells mostly to counteract the Marauders. Meanwhile, the Marauders were making a map that helped them get into mischief and put villagers in danger. It's "mayhem for all" versus "you will pay," and anything to not be boring.

I don't know if you've read Jessica Mitford's Hons and Rebels (http://books.google.com/books?id=pzeGAQAACAAJ), but it apparently had a huge influence on Rowling, so much so that she named her first daughter Jessica. The boy that Jessica, or Decca, falls in love with, Esmond Romilly, was a troublemaker and eventually dropped out of his privileged life and school. Decca and Esmond were quite naive, but their hearts were in the right places (and the book is wonderful). I'm fairly convinced that many of the "good" characters in the HP books are based on a shallow retelling of the story of Esmond, Jessica, and their friends (and the "bad" characters are based on people on whom Rowling wanted revenge).

And then Harry hands them a pile of cash, because there are no more worthy causes.

Harry's pretty unthoughtful except when it comes to himself. However, most kids probably wouldn't think beyond their friends. An adult might have given the money to Cedric Diggory's parents to distribute in a way Cedric might have wanted, or set up a scholarship fund.

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

An adult might have given the money to Cedric Diggory's parents to distribute in a way Cedric might have wanted, or set up a scholarship fund.

IIRC, Harry did offer them the money, shockingly enough*, but they refused it - Harry had apparently won it fairly, and gods forbid he receive less glory than his dead rival.

*Presumably, being the victim of a pointless death, Cedric had proved his courage.

[dungeonwriter.livejournal.com]

I get why they refused it, they lost their only child and I doubt the money (around 5000 pounds or 10,000 dollars) would do much for them.

But how much would it actually do for the Twins? 10k is a tidy sum, but it's not the stuff business by 16 year olds are made of. Someone has to manage it, keep track of the bottom line.

And did you notice, none seemed to think about sharing with the rest of the family, considering how "poor" they are supposed to be.

[the-bitter-word.livejournal.com]

Thanks. My memories of the books diminish by the day. Lucky me!

[oryx_leucoryx]

You forgot trying to get their brother to make an Unbreakable Vow, feeding a salamander a Filibuster firework, nearly causing their teammate to bleed to death with a Nosebleed Nougat, and incessantly picking on Percy.

Also killing Ron's pet puffskein by using it as a bludger (yikes!) and giving Ron lifelong arachnophobia.

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

I just remembered, but the first episode of Beavis and Butt-Head was called "Frog Baseball," and involved their using a frog as a baseball. I've seen almost every episode of that show, and in none of them are B and B ever portrayed as cute, charming, harmless, or anything other than disgusting, dimwitted, juvenile delinquents. The humor is in the contrast between their self-image as smart, cool, and sophisticated, and the reality of them as dunderheaded losers--although a lot of their comments on TV shows, music videos, and popular culture are spot on, which I guess makes them savants of a sort. (For example, see the episode in which they see Twilight and decide to become vampires so they can get chicks.)

[urbanman1984.livejournal.com]

Oh well, at least Fred did get some kind of comeuppance in the end, even though JKR certainly did not see it that way.

[dungeonwriter.livejournal.com]

It's been years since I CoS-ed but I think Percy did notice that Ginny wasn't up to it, in the bathroom incident, no? Yes, he screwed up when he interupted her, but he thought she was fine and was just gossiping. He did get her to take a Pepper-up potion and he tried to assure her Ron wouldn't get expelled, but no one seemed to notice how badly she was doing, and how easy would Riddled Ginny be able to say "It's a female thing" or just chalk it up to being scared of Merlin Knows What petrifying people.

But do you ever think Arthur and Molly are just pretty horrible parents? Seriously, the twins are running wild but no one ever seens to clamp down on them. They kidnap Harry (instead of going to their parents) "That was erm...very wrong, boys, *wink* now go degnome the garden that you were likely going to do anyway as your chore."

They magick Dudley? "BAD BAD, but let's not tell your mother, the one person who you seem to fear."

The one time we hear of actual discipline is when the twins openly and literally endangered Ron's very life in the most horrible way. Besides that, it's hands off.

No wonder Percy is a bit stiff. How many can see Molly asking the poor boy to watch his younger siblings while she tends to the baby? Or cooks?

I've taken care of multiple children (including special needs ones, like autism and serious illness) at one time, for long periods of time. And yes, they got into mischief. They raided the fridges, tried to blow up the microwave once, stole my shoes and hid them and they drove me a little crazy. And I would take them ALL at once before taking on the twins.

The twins are out of control. They have no fear of authority. They revel in showing how little they care for it. They turn their brother's teddy bear into a spider. They bully their siblings. They get lousy grades.

And the world loves them. Adores them. Finds them so hilarious.


It would have been fascinating if Arthur would have lost his job for the car incident as he's GUILTY as all sin of misusing the law to suit his own wishes and you know, breaking it pretty openly, and endangering his underage children by having it when they could get it.

Or if Ludo would have gotten Arthur fired. Or even just cut his budget. He's a guy who can get off at trials on sheer popularity. He could hurt Arthur very easily.

Or Ludo could have just told Arthur.

WHat's most fascinating is that JKR doesn't seem to know how a busienss is run. Inventing stuff is one thing, but managing a business takes a lot of keeping details straight, keeping records, managing accounts, research, and really thinking the small stuff. So...much like someone they despise.

I could see them making products for Zonkos and doing well. But them keeping track of business records?

Ha.

[sunnyskywalker]

Now you've got me imagining Percy sneaking into the shop at night and balancing their ledger, not for their sake particularly, but because he just can't bear the thought of Fred and George ending up in deep debt through carelessness which will ruin the whole family.

Or maybe their shop girl takes care of all those details behind the scenes (and handles their PR schedule, and their dry cleaning...), while Mssrs. Weasley get the credit for having awesome business skills. That's probably the most likely scenario.

[dungeonwriter.livejournal.com]

Actually....I may have a drabble out of that.

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

The twins are out of control. They have no fear of authority. They revel in showing how little they care for it. They turn their brother's teddy bear into a spider. They bully their siblings. They get lousy grades.

And the world loves them. Adores them. Finds them so hilarious.

It didn't occur to me until I read this, but there was a girl on Dr. Phil just today who acted exactly like the twins, or any HP protagonist. She was extremely obnoxious and self-centered; literally believed the world revolved around her; everyone existed to accommodate her needs; and if anyone did not immediately give her whatever she wanted, she had the right to retaliate in any way she saw fit. Here is a partial list of the things she's done: duct-taped a handicapped boy's mouth shut; bullied people so badly they left school to get away from her; punched her mother, a principal, and a police officer in the mouth; bitten a principal and a police officer; threatened to cut her mother's throat, cut out her tongue, and burn the house down with her family in it; destroyed the front yard, including attempting to throw a bird bath through the car window, because her parents painted her room the wrong color; gotten drunk and stoned on illegal drugs many times; slept around; gotten raped while she was blacked out.

I want to make it clear that she DID NOT have ANYTHING wrong with her as far as being mentally deficient, developmentally delayed, brain-disordered, or anything like that. She was just a complete spoiled, entitled brat. She showed no empathy and no remorse whatever for anything bad she'd ever done.

Although the audience on that show is required to behave politely, it was obvious they hated her, and were thrilled when the show ended and she was hauled off to a reform school ranch against her will. This is yet another example of how sick these books are: When a real person acts like the twins, she's regarded as a hated and feared monster, not a cuddly, adorable prankster.

[oryx_leucoryx]

IIRC Ginny's mood was attributed to her being fond of cats. It was after Mrs Norris was Petrified. A young person feeling bad that a cat was hurt so mysteriously makes a lot of sense.

They get lousy grades.

Before PS they still had decent grades, as far as Ron knew. I think once they saw Percy becoming a prefect they decided they were not going to run the risk of either of them becoming one.

Oh and Percy is stuck up and pompous but Fred and George are the ones who demand their one employee address them as 'Mr Weasley'.

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

It would have been fascinating if Arthur would have lost his job for the car incident as he's GUILTY as all sin of misusing the law to suit his own wishes and you know, breaking it pretty openly, and endangering his underage children by having it when they could get it

I am so irritated that no fans can see the hypocrisy of Arthur being in a department to prevent people using magic on Muggle objects, only for him to do that very thing. Like, sure, there's corrupt people in the Ministry who misuse their power, Lucius Malfoy, etc. etc. but don't make Arthur out to be the lone hero when he's guilty of the same! Put that into real world terms, like a member of the Drug Squad that steals drugs for recreational use on his own time, and see if that person would get away with it. >:[

And I love Molly's reaction to anything to do with Muggle objects- it's not 'stop tinkering with them, it's against the law', but 'Muggle things are useless and stupid, why are you wasting your time on them?' *eyeroll*

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

/But do you ever think Arthur and Molly are just pretty horrible parents? Seriously, the twins are running wild but no one ever seens to clamp down on them./

Actually, now that I think about it, do you think that the Weasley parents were modeled after Mr. and Mrs. Bennet from "Pride and Prejudice," since JKR is a big fan of Jane Austen? Arthur as the laid-back father and Molly as the harried mother? Because if so, then I think that JKR missed the point. As witty and amusing as Mr. Bennet may be, the narrative makes it plain that he is just as culpable as Mrs. Bennet when it comes to the irresponsible parenting of their two younger daughters. When Lydia runs off with Wickham, Mr. Bennet readily admits to Elizabeth that the fault was partly his. Yet in HP, we never see Arthur or Molly directly acknowledge they are at least partly responsible for their children's behavior or that any blame should be ascribed to them.

[sunnyskywalker]

I held out hope till the last minute that one of them - or someone they would regret seeing die, at least, like Arthur - would die at the hands of one of their own weapons which ended up in DE hands. It seemed like a logical outcome, since even terrified baby DEs like Draco could figure out that Fred and George's products were useful for the war, and we had no idea at that point how many of the "joke" products had already ended up in the DE armory (figuratively speaking) during that year. But the universe protects them from the law of unintended consequences, apparently. If they don't intend for DEs to use love potions to get information from Ministry employees, or tweak those Daydreams in some nefarious way, then it won't happen.

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

I could be totally wrong about this, but wasn't there something about them beating a pet of Ron's or Ginny's to death? A puff...skein or whatever? I got the impression of a fuzzy ball of fur. They used it for bludger practice or something, just...wtf, guys?

And what about what the twins did to Montague? Hermione worried about it for like, two seconds before Ron was like, 'Pssh, stop being upset over a kid with brain trauma and worry about me! I haz quidditch woes!'

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

I once read a very good, creepily believable fic about the twins that has stayed with me. I won't go into too much detail because, um, massive trigger warnings might be needed, but it involved keeping Umbridge in a cage. I still shudder over that fic. But it seemed so very plausible.

[mksolomon.livejournal.com]

Actually, Ron wanted Hermione to worry about him because he was convinced his mother would blame him for the twins' apocalyptic departure from school.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

The twins' antics seem less disturbing to me if I think of them as animated cartoon characters rather than as real people. While most people would (hopefully) find the twins' behavior appalling in real life, many would probably find it hilarious if they were watching certain cartoons. I think the twins would be right at home in a show like The Simpsons, for instance.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

Thinking about this some more... I'm not a fan of the twins, by any means, but I think some of your accusations might be a bit unfair.

---They win their bet with Bagman....

I don't really see what's wrong about the twins winning the bet with Bagman unless one believes that gambling is inherently immoral. It certainly doesn't appear to be illegal to gamble in the WW.

----...(it was never explained how they knew it - maybe they used magical means in an early draft)....

The twins are Quidditch fanatics. If they believed that Ireland had a stronger team overall, but Bulgaria the better seeker, then their bet could very well have been an educated guess, especially if Krum had a history of catching the snitch even if his team was going to lose.

----...but never face consequences (given that the Ministry is notoriously corrupt, it's surprising that Ludo is always on the defensive, and never tries to e.g. get Arthur fired or have the twins prosecuted for their illegal testing).

If I remember correctly, Ludo owed larger sums of money to several other people, including the goblins, so he had bigger problems to deal with than his bet with the twins. Also, while I don't approve of how the twins do their product testing, is what they do actually illegal?

----In OOTP, they spy on Order meetings (how bad is the security?) but no DEs seem to exploit this.

Maybe the twins should have faced consequences for their spying, but what would have led the DEs to suspect that they might have inside info? I think it more likely that the DEs would have targeted known Order members, like Mundugus Fletcher, if they wanted intel. Plus, the Death Eaters believed that they already had a spy in the Order, Severus Snape.

----They also drop out of school without qualifications

In the WW, it appears that's it's pretty acceptable to leave school after completing one's O.W.L.S. Some readers believe that Charlie only stayed at Hogwarts through his fifth year. Also, the twins might have still been able to sit for their N.E.W.T.S., even though they left school early, because you don't have to attend Hogwarts in order to take the exams.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Also, while I don't approve of how the twins do their product testing, is what they do actually illegal?

It is implied in OOTP that Mundungus was supplying them with some 'restricted' ingredients - not necessarily illegal, but the manner of acquisition may have been. As for testing on first-year students - it isn't clear what the laws are, but again, some formulations are illegal to use on minors, it isn't clear how the Wheezes fit such rules. I doubt wizards actually bothered to come up with laws regarding ethical product testing, so the use of minors in product research without parental input may be legal due to the general chaotic state of wizarding society. I'd say the state of regulation in wizarding Britain is about where we were in the 19th century or so.

[sunnyskywalker]

It does sound plausible that Ludo wouldn't push the issue by trying to get Arthur in trouble or something because of his debts - it's not like he'd want to remind anyone that he owed anyone money, which this probably would even if he tried to cover it with a different issue.

If the DEs had ever pressured the twins into being their weapons suppliers - which they really should have - I wonder if there was any way they could have stumbled onto the fact that the twins knew things accidentally? And could this have caused problems for Snape, if they knew something he failed to report in a way it was hard for him to spin?