Jumping Ship from the Lily's Pad

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

On Saturday night I was catching up on reading DTCL and came across a post from terri_testing about why so few people claim James and Lily as friends. (posted 8/6/12, in reply to “Lupin’s ‘Resignation’,” by danajsparks) Part of it reads: 

What did happen to those witch friends Lily had in fifth year, the ones who couldn't understand why she even talked to Severus, the ones she sat and chatted with after the DADA OWL? Did their jealousy over the Mudblood scooping the Head Girl position (and the most eligible Pureblood bachelor) separate them? Were they naturally driven apart by diverging life paths caused by Lily's extremely early settling into marriage and motherhood while her friends all pursued careers....? 

Or there's always the solution I proposed in my abusive!James fic "Liberacorpus," that James had taken the precaution of sleeping his way through all of Lily's friends, so as to alienate them from her.... 

This got me to thinking: Maybe Lily’s friends were alienated, not by her good fortune or by James, but by Lily herself. I see two possibilities, both of which reflect badly on her and which are not mutually exclusive:

1) It’s certainly possible Lily’s friends were jealous because she got to be Head Girl and caught Big Wizard on Campus James. But under normal circumstances, friends get over such things. 

At least, they would have unless Lily rubbed their faces in her triumphs. If she bragged about how lucky she was, or how her success was proof of her greatness, particularly since she was a latecomer to the wizarding world, that would alienate anyone who wasn’t a complete doormat.

Of course, there is no proof Lily did that. But this kind of behavior accords with the assertion some people, most notably marionros, have made about Lily’s being a narcissist. Narcissists love to brag about themselves anyway (think Dumbledore in King’s Cross), and a triumphant narcissist would be worse than normal.

Such boasting is also compatible with the behaviors we see from Lily that indicate she had a poor character. For example, she was somewhat contemptuous and superior towards Severus, such as when she ordered him around, dismissed his feelings and concerns, or automatically took other people’s versions of events over his. 

She also exhibited a sadistic streak by using her magic to scare and torment Petunia. This is the moral equivalent of having your friends hold somebody while you punch them, or shoving over someone in a wheelchair, then laughing when they can’t get up.

No wonder she walked off and left her “best friend” to be attacked. She was doing the same thing outside of school herself, and to her own sister, who could not fight back. Which brings me to my next point. 

2) The other possibility for why Lily’s friendships ended may impart to her schoolmates a level of perspicacity they didn’t possess, but it’s an interesting idea anyway.

Lily may have bragged to or joked with her friends about using her magic to torment Petunia. I would never want to be friends with a person who was debased enough to attack her own family for entertainment.  

Regarding Severus, while Lily’s friends were no doubt happy to see her dump the greasy Slytherin, they may not have liked the way she did it. Initially, they just would have been happy he was gone, but over time, they may have become uncomfortable with her actions.

This was a boy Lily had known for six years, since she was nine. Her friends may have known she’d told Severus they were “best friends.” She had refused to break off their friendship for years, despite pressure from her House to dump him.

Then one day, he slipped up and insulted her while under extreme stress. And that was it. She literally turned her back on him and left him while he was helpless, to be assaulted by a ruthless gang of thugs. 

Severus didn’t just apologize for insulting her. He actually groveled to her, begging her forgiveness, risking his safety in the process. (Every time I think about this scene, I hear the Temptations singing, “Ain’t Too Proud to Beg.”) Yet she refused to even accept his apology, let alone have anything to do with him again.

If Lily was a prefect, her behavior was even worse. Regardless of her feelings for the victim, it was her duty to protect someone from being assaulted, especially by a group of attackers. She failed to do the job she’d been chosen for, to live up the obligation she’d accepted. This makes her nothing but a prettier, spunkier version of Remus the Spineless because they both allowed their personal feelings to prevent them from doing their duty.

I can’t help comparing Lily and Remus as prefects with the black American soldiers who served in World War II. These men fought and died for their country, even though they had been the victims of vicious racism at home and knew they would be again once the war was over. They realized many of the people they were fighting for were disgusting bigots who didn’t consider them fully human. They usually weren’t even allowed to serve in the same units as white soldiers. Many of them were only a few years older than Lily and Remus. Yet despite all that, they put their sense of duty ahead of their personal feelings and risked their lives for all Americans, regardless of how loathsome many individuals were. That is why they are now considered groundbreaking heroes. 

Imagine having Lily as a comrade in the Order. You will go into battle with her and trust her with your life. You’ll expect her to have your back, no matter what. 

What if you say or do something wrong while under pressure? How do you know that, when you need her the most, she won’t turn her back on you, too, and leave you at the mercy of your enemies? If she could do that to someone she’d been friends with almost half her life, why wouldn’t she do it to you as well?

Would you trust someone like that in battle?

I wouldn’t. 

  

Comments

[oryx_leucoryx]

Pressure and humiliation tends to bring your defences down, meaning you cannot controll yourself from saying things you normally wouldn't say. It doesn't MAKE you say things you don't think.

So? Consider the other swear word in HP-canon, the word 'bitch'. For a long time it was often used to specify a woman who didn't 'know her place' - whether by standing up for herself or rejecting a man who believed himself entitled to her attention or any other way. The word criticizes a woman for not being 'womanly enough'. But it became an all-around insult for a woman for whatever reason, whether said reason would also apply to a man or not. So people may intend it either as 'insufficiently submissive woman' or as 'evil person who is female' (even if they don't believe all women are inferior to men). In other 'net places I hang out at the more vocal posters are raising awareness for such behavior and are advocating the idea that gendered insults are uncool, regardless of the reason the word was chosen, because even if the speaker did not intend the word in a sexist way, its use promotes a culture of sexism. They tell people that if they want to insult someone call them an asshole because everyone has one. Or use random words as equal-opportunity insults (the most common one is 'cupcake' and believe me, it is pretty obvious when the word is being used to insult). Debate continues as to which other insults to add to the list of words to be discouraged. (Is 'douche' sexist? Homophobic?)

Back to Severus. He heard the word 'mudblood' a lot. I bet his mother referred to Lily as such. So when Lily behaved badly to him he called her the way others did when they disparaged her (and people like her) - and you can't know if it meant 'Muggle-borns shouldn't behave like that, but I would accept such behavior from someone who wasn't' or 'she is behaving unacceptably *and* Muggle-born, so I'll call her an insulting word for a Muggle-born'.

But up to that moment, Severus had been her friend and - as weird as it may seem - I think she might have owed him to respect his wish for her not to interfere on his behalf.

That moment was already too late. Lily should have done more, whether as a prefect or a friend before things got bad enough that he lashed out at her. No, I don't expect her to be a mind-reader, I'm saying her supposed 'defense' of Severus was not. She was standing there arguing with James instead of disarming him and undoing his hexes. If she was going to use Severus' humiliation to mentally bat her eyelashes at James then yes, he had no need for her 'help'.

[snapes-witch.livejournal.com]

That moment was already too late. Lily should have done more, whether as a prefect or a friend before things got bad enough that he lashed out at her. No, I don't expect her to be a mind-reader, I'm saying her supposed 'defense' of Severus was not. She was standing there arguing with James instead of disarming him and undoing his hexes. If she was going to use Severus' humiliation to mentally bat her eyelashes at James then yes, he had no need for her 'help'.

Good point, even JKR says she's flirting with James! She even has a quick smile as she walks up to them.

[sunnyskywalker]

That's one of the sticking points for me with Lily's character. I agree with aasaylva that Sev's use of the slur could be a reasonable reason to end the friendship - even if she does believe he's sorry, and used it as a word that can be used as an insult against people like her (rather than meaning that he thought it described people like her accurately) to take Oryx's distinction - that combined with the fact that his friends are supposedly known to be anti-Muggleborn generally would make it harder to trust him as a friend. Depending on the exact circumstances (just how bad have Sev's friends been? would he be in danger if he stood up to them?), maybe they could work it out, maybe not, but I wouldn't particularly hold it against her, even if she didn't handle it especially well, because that is something I'll cut immature, emotional teenagers a break for.

But. She sees her friend - even if they're on the rocks, he's still been her best friend for years - being tormented, and her response is not to give James a warning and then try to disarm him and/or call for backup if she needs it, but to stand there and flirt-fight with him? At best, it looks like she doesn't value Sev's well-being that highly. And after watching James attack Sev and others unprovoked - starting him being a snob and jackass on the train - for years, she finds James at all attractive? Most people I know would have an instinctively aversive reaction toward someone like that, even if they believed he had done one single good thing once. I think this would be a valid reason for Sev to want to stop being friends with Lily.

So given that, it seems a lot more like Lily isn't especially bothered by bullying and cruelty as such, unless it's directed at her or someone she values that day. Or is committed by someone she doesn't like. Or it looks like she supports arbitrary bullying of people who don't "deserve" it, because I don't think that fits with her image of herself as one of the good people who doesn't do that sort of thing. And that puts her dumping Sev and hooking up with James a year later in a worse light.

I doubt that her friends would be particularly bothered if she did talk about turning Petunia's teacup into a rat etc., because that doesn't seem like something most witches and wizards would see as anything but a hilarious prank. And they probably thought Sev deserved whatever he got. But if she had a habit of abandoning friends who had offended her to unpleasant situations, or just dropping them, they might clue in that it wasn't just about leaving one slimy Slytherin to a richly-deserved fate, but something about Lily's character which made being friends with her more difficult. Especially if it were out of proportion to the offenses. That might have led to a cooling of friendships, during or after their school years.

It's also entirely possible that while James wasn't still hexing everyone into oblivion, he was still an ass, and Lily wouldn't listen if her friends complained about this and came up with all sorts of reasons why they were wrong or oversensitive or started it. That would get old, fast.

Another possibility is that Lily and James were a really annoying couple, one of the kind who suddenly never, ever have time for you after they get together. It would be easy enough for her friends go go, "Fine, you're too busy to hang out now that you're with Jamesie-pooh? We'll just have girls' night without you, then."

[oryx_leucoryx]

But if she had a habit of abandoning friends who had offended her to unpleasant situations, or just dropping them, they might clue in that it wasn't just about leaving one slimy Slytherin to a richly-deserved fate, but something about Lily's character which made being friends with her more difficult.

Continuing this line of thought, it may have been Lily who abandoned her friends one by one. Or perhaps after she became James' girlfriend there were situations where James' 3 friends complained about Lily's 2-3 friends and at some moment of conflicting loyalties she chose James' friends.

[sionna-raven.livejournal.com]

Or perhaps after she became James' girlfriend there were situations where James' 3 friends complained about Lily's 2-3 friends and at some moment of conflicting loyalties she chose James' friends.

They don't need to complain or be openly unfriendly. It's an awkward situation to bring another girl into this 'exclusive' boys club. They are contend with each others company. Lily is accepted as James' girlfriend.
It gets worse, if any of her friends was interested in Lupin or Sirius and hoped Lily could 'help'. Lupin would be utterly embarrassed and I don't even want to imagine how Sirius would react to the slightest hint of attempted match-making.

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

I'm a bit late jumping in here - however, I think there is also the possibility that her girlfriends abandoned her for her own nasty habits. We see repeatedly that when Lily feels she has been attacked she can get quite nasty and go for the spot that hurts the most.

We watch her do so to Petunia while waiting for the Hogwarts Express - telling her she knows about Petunia's letter to Dumbledore. And we see that repeated in SWM after Snape insults her with Mudblood - she responds with not just 'Snivelous' but also the comment about his 'greyed' undershorts (in other words about his poverty, she knows darn well they are old because he can't afford better)

I therefore wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if she didn't end up alienating her other friends at some point as well.

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

I'm even later here, but I really can't understand why Lily is seen as a likeable character by the fanbase. The fact that she seems to both enjoy being a bully and being around other bullies makes me lose all sympathy for her. Especially her cruelty to Petunia. Petunia may not be a very nice person as an adult, but I can sure see why she would have such hatred for anything connected to her narcissistic monster of a sister.

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

Before I read these books, I deliberately ignored everything about them as much as possible--media reports, online fora, anything. To this day, I've never seen the movies. I waited until the entire series had been finished for almost 2 years before I read it. I did all that so I could come to the books with the most open-minded and unprejudiced attitude possible.

I started out having neutral feelings for Lily, but the more and closer I look at her, the worse she looks. I can't help that. That's just what's on the page. She and her ilk behave just as badly as the "bad" characters, such as Snape and Petunia, but we're supposed to look at the "good" characters' jerkiness and pretend it's not really jerkiness because "good" characters are doing it. Judging behavior is all purely arbitrary, based on the author's personal preferences, and the readers are supposed to mindlessly go along with that double standard just because the author says so. "Because I say so" may work with toddlers, but it shouldn't work with adults.

What's so sad about this fandom is that it does work with so many fans. We've all seen canon whores wailing, for example, "The Death Eaters are so as bad as Nazis! It says so right in the books!"

Who are you gonna believe, JKR or your lying eyes? The answer to that question is what separates the fans who are mental and emotional adults from the ones, no matter their age, who are still mental and emotional children.

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

What's so sad about this fandom is that it does work with so many fans. We've all seen canon whores wailing, for example, "The Death Eaters are so as bad as Nazis! It says so right in the books!"

What bothers me more is when the people who are doing this really ought to know better. I know quite a few very intelligent people, some of whom actually have a background in literature, who nonetheless tend to believe everything JKR says, even if it directly contradicts what's actually written in the books. Of course, I can't be too hard on them, as I was kind of like that myself a few years ago. The difference is that I finally stopped ignoring the things about the series that had always bugged me a little, rather than blithely accepting them as part of JKR's perfect master plan.

[josephinestone.livejournal.com]

What's so sad about this fandom is that it does work with so many fans. We've all seen canon whores wailing, for example, "The Death Eaters are so as bad as Nazis! It says so right in the books!"

I know these is really old (I just saw your latest post and wanted to start from the beginning of your posts), but this mentality has always bothered me. Not just with Harry Potter fans, but every time I run into in when talking about the Holocaust. People talking about Nazis as though they weren't people. It just bothers me. I don't understand it. As much as it is talked about and most people still don't even know what a Nazi even was.

They forget (or just don't get?) that when you are under a dictatorship, you don't get to choose your political party anymore.

ETA: Judging behavior is all purely arbitrary, based on the author's personal preferences, and the readers are supposed to mindlessly go along with that double standard just because the author says so.

This has always bothered me, but I'm normally attacked (or just have people try to explain it all away as children's books) when I say anything about it. I do love the series, but it isn't flawless.

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

Preconceptions count, I suppose. Before we see Lily we spend four and a half books reading about how perfect and wonderful she is, so people are predisposed towards interpreting her actions in the most positive light possible.

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

She sees her friend - even if they're on the rocks, he's still been her best friend for years - being tormented, and her response is not to give James a warning and then try to disarm him and/or call for backup if she needs it, but to stand there and flirt-fight with him?

If she had cared about Severus, or even about doing her duty, she would have: (1) ordered James and Sirius to leave Severus alone. (2) If they didn't comply, Stupefy or Body-bind them and take their wands. (3) undone their spells and checked to see if Severus was all right. (4) Levitated James and Sirius into the castle, either alone or with help, so they could be punished.

So given that, it seems a lot more like Lily isn't especially bothered by bullying and cruelty as such, unless it's directed at her or someone she values that day. Or is committed by someone she doesn't like. Or it looks like she supports arbitrary bullying of people who don't "deserve" it, because I don't think that fits with her image of herself as one of the good people who doesn't do that sort of thing.

Gasp! You're not suggesting she's fickle or shallow, are you? ;-)

I doubt that her friends would be particularly bothered if she did talk about turning Petunia's teacup into a rat etc., because that doesn't seem like something most witches and wizards would see as anything but a hilarious prank.

If you're talking about most magical on non-magical violence, I would agree with you. The reason I specified family is because many people consider it worse to abuse your family than people not related to you. So they might think it's not OK to torment your own sister, but it is OK to do the same to some random stranger.

Another possibility is that Lily and James were a really annoying couple

Oh, I can easily see that. Heck, they're annoying all by themselves; put them together and the irritation factor goes up exponentially.

[sunnyskywalker]

Well, given how clueless wizards are about psychological trauma, I can't see turning teacups into rats being a big deal to them even if it is your sister's teacup. Transfiguring her into a rat, sure, but just changing an object in front of her for a bit of a scare? Nah. It has no physical effect, and there's no drunken mob threatening physical violence later, so what's the harm?

I think I could get over a Lily who was merely fickle or shallow. That would just be disappointing. But fickleness or shallowness as a motivation to passively support four-on-one waterboarding? That's just horrifying.

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

Of course, if Petunia had found some way to defend herself, such as pulling a knife on her or something, it would mean that she's a terrible, terrible person who just can't appreciate Lily's awesomeness.

I swear, I think the thing that I hate the most about this series is that the author refuses to let her readers decide who the good and bad guys are. She plays favorites in a way pretty similar to Petunia and Dudley, actually.

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

Of course, if Petunia had found some way to defend herself, such as pulling a knife on her or something, it would mean that she's a terrible, terrible person who just can't appreciate Lily's awesomeness.

Oh, I love that idea! It's too bad they have such strict gun laws in the UK (for dramatic purposes, of course, not RL purposes). I can just imagine Petunia pulling out a 9 MM and snarling, "Hex this, MF!" Blam, blam, blam, blam! There goes Lily and Harry.

Of course, Severus would probably come after Petunia then, and get killed, too. But at least he wouldn't be wasting his life pining after somebody who didn't care about him.

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

Good point, even JKR says she's flirting with James! She even has a quick smile as she walks up to them.

Yes, it always annoys me when younger readers say they don't think Lily was flirting with James. To all the under-45 readers of HP:

It doesn't matter what you think. You are not Baby Boomers. To someone of our generation, there is no doubt Lily and James are flirting.

People's actions always have to be evaluated in historical context. In the 1970s, girls were not allowed to openly show their interest in boys, especially "bad boys" like James. For people young enough to grow up in a time when women had the freedom to express their sexual interests openly, congratulations. You're lucky not to have the necessary background to recognize this behavior. That does not mean older readers are wrong when we say flirting is occurring--particularly since the author herself has confirmed our belief.

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

/She was standing there arguing with James instead of disarming him and undoing his hexes./

And that’s why the revelation of Lily and Severus being best friends in DH was such a surprise. Not only did Lily not act as if she knew Snape personally, she didn’t even behave as if he was there at all! Her whole focus during the scene was on James. It was as if she’d caught James bullying Severus, Severus had run away, and then Lily had confronted James, instead of Lily confronting James and having a long argument with him while Snape was *still there.* Instead of both Lily and James treating Snape like he was a background prop, not worthy of their attention.

Again, if Draco had done the same thing to Harry and Hermione had rushed to the scene, how many people believe that she would have ignored Harry’s predicament in favor of arguing with Draco, then telling Draco to put Harry down instead of doing it herself, and then continuing to ignore Harry in favor of arguing with Draco?

/If she was going to use Severus' humiliation to mentally bat her eyelashes at James then yes, he had no need for her 'help'./

Or for her “friendship.”

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

/If she was going to use Severus' humiliation to mentally bat her eyelashes at James then yes, he had no need for her 'help'./

Or for her “friendship.”

What's really sad about this is that he was so lacking in self-respect he didn't realize that. Not then, and not ever.

Not consciously, anyway. I wonder, though, if maybe subconsciously he had a lot of hostility towards her for the way she'd treated him. Maybe Harry's having Lily's eyes was negative as well as positive, whether or not Snape realized it.

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

I have thought the same thing for a while now. But after Halloween it would be near impossible for him to acknowledge any anger towards her to himself - because of the guilt over her death, but also because he would need IMHO to believe in her as an ideal figure to whom he could devote himself in penance, as a way of subconsciously motivating himself to see his task through. Acknowledging that she was not perfect and had treated him badly, acknowledging anger at her, would threaten to make everything too complicated emotionally for him to deal with at a point when he didn't have the space or support to actually work things through for himself, and when he would feel the need for a simple/simplistic world in which he has a defined task and a defined role as repentant sinner. (I guess the whole Lily issue plays heavily into why I read him as essentially a Catholic figure, but that's a bit of a tangent).

But yes, I do see unacknowledged mixed feelings about her playing into his relationship with Harry - who for all the times he behaves like James also echoes Lily often as well. Take for example the scene in the Hall in PS/SS when Harry's scar hurts. I'd say that seeing a look of pain/anger (the two can look similar) directed at him by Lily's eyes in James' face would immediately trigger a whole host of negative feelings in Severus, not all of which he would feel able to acknowledge or process. Not a great first impression of Harry for him, no matter how mistaken the mix-up originally was. (BTW, is there ever a hint that Severus ever learned that Harry was reacting to his scar there, not so much any preconceived ideas about Severus himself?)

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

And just THINK how Snape might take this with the knowledge we now have that he KNEW Petunia and she highly disliked him! I cannot imagine (now that we know about their childhoods) that Snape would NOT think Petunia had been bad-mouthing Snape for years to Harry - possibly with family photos, so Harry would recognize him. WE know this didn't happen, but I can certainly imagine Snape would believe it did.

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

Oh, certainly he'd believe/suspect it. And given what he knew of Petunia's history (the letter and desire to go to Hogwarts), I don't think he'd necessarily imagine that Petunia might treat Harry badly *because of his magic*. But yeah, seeing that expression directed at him by Harry combined with his suspicions about Petunia bad-mouthing him he'd be primed to think that Harry came in hating him - ironically.

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

So? Consider the other swear word in HP-canon, the word 'bitch'. For a long time it was often used to specify a woman who didn't 'know her place' - whether by standing up for herself or rejecting a man who believed himself entitled to her attention or any other way. The word criticizes a woman for not being 'womanly enough'. But it became an all-around insult for a woman for whatever reason, whether said reason would also apply to a man or not.

What makes me really angry is when people use female-related terms to insult men, such as "bitch," "cunt," and "pussy," or when they denote someone in a subordinate position by calling them "so-and-so's bitch." Those are just modern ways of calling a man "womanish," meaning that he's automatically weaker if he's like a woman than a "real man" should be. Considering all the crap women have had to put up with over the centuries, if anything, women as a group are stronger than men, not weaker.

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

Agreed. I don't swear in general, but I especially try to avoid gendered swears. Seriously, is it just that hard to pick a non-gendered insult to describe what you're trying to say? Call him a "coward," a "weakling," a "doormat," etc. You don't have to reach for the insult that implicitly shames women.

[oryx_leucoryx]

What makes me really angry is when people use female-related terms to insult men

... and then use that as an excuse to claim that 'bitch' or whichever word isn't a sexist term anymore because it is used for men too .... Yeah, right!

[avery567.livejournal.com]

Tell that to all the men who have been tortured, maimed and killed throughout history.

Also, women are NOTHING as a group. A group is a concept just like a forest is a concept. A tree is an actual physical object that exists, but forests are merely concepts. My point is, you are not the group, and the group is not you.

Not that I don't see your point, but your last sentence was ridiculous.